Still Separate and Unequal

Raul Fernandez: depending on what you see as the central issue around school segregation, whether you're more concerned around this issue of like who's sitting next to one another and what impacts that might have, or whether you're just concerned about like equalizing opportunity across race, I think there's room for you in the movement.

Phillipe: Welcome to From Issues to Action. I'm your host, Philippe Copeland. In a world full of challenges, what can we do? Join me for conversations that answer this question. If you want to be informed and inspired, this podcast is for you. This episode features a conversation with Dr. Raul Fernandez. Dr. Fernandez is a senior lecturer in the Educational Leadership and Policy Studies Program at Boston University Wheelock College of Education and Human Development, where he studies, writes, and teaches about inequities in education. We explored how school segregation remains a problem. How it isn't limited to white and black students, the differences between desegregation and integration, and what can be done to encourage both. We also discuss the implications of all of this for multiracial democracy in America. I hope you enjoy it. Alright, Raul, thanks so much for joining me on From Issues to Action today.

Raul Fernandez: Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

Phillipe: Awesome. So I wanted to start with giving you a chance to say what you most want listeners to know about you as a person.

Raul Fernandez: Yeah. you know, I I'll say right you know, the defining characteristic of my life is being a dad. I'm a dad to a a five year old Maya. she's phenomenal. I take maybe some small credit for that, but but I think you know, before this so much of my work was driven through the lens of my own life. and friends and other members of my family as well, of course, but since Maya came around, so much of the way that I think about the world is through her eyes and also thinking about her future and so she's really deepened my understanding of a lot of the issues I'm sure we'll be talking about today.

Phillipe: That's great. Thank you so much for that. And you're not the first parent that has been on the show. this has been a common theme for people that are raising people. I'm also a parent, so I appreciate that context for you in terms of your motivation and how you think about the world So thank you for forwarding that. so I invited you on the podcast to talk about the work that you've been doing about the issue of school segregation. And so for listeners who may be less familiar with this issue. Could you just start with, you know, what are a few really key facts that you think everybody needs to understand about the issue of school segregation?

Raul Fernandez: Yeah, I I think for starters it's that it's an issue that is very much present in our lives today and I think so much of the way we think about the issue of school segregation is an issue of the past, something that was addressed through the Brown v. Board decision back in nineteen fifty four, and and our view of it much through sort of black and white videos. of desegregation movements whether in the south or or even here in Boston, where I am right now. and I think the important thing for folks to understand is it is very much an issue that families are impacted by today, whether it's anywhere around the country really, and also here where I do much of my work in in Massachusetts. and so I think that's a great place to start. I would also say that while there were many people impacted by school segregation in the past in terms of racial demographics, much of our view of it is a story of black and white, even though there were Asians that were organizing against school segregation for for many years as well as Latinos and others. but today you know the demographics of schools have shifted. there's significantly more Latinos in in public schools across the country as well as here in Massachusetts and And in Massachusetts, for instance, of those that are in the most segregated schools in the state, two-thirds of the students there are Latino and one quarter are black. And so I think that really shifts our understanding and thinking and when we think about school segregation, understanding who it's impacting, I think is really important. so those are at least a couple things that we need think about and talk about.

Phillipe: Yeah, that's really great. So, first of all, this isn't just a problem from the past, it's very present. And who we imagine when we think about the problem needs to shift in terms of who we're talking about. That's something I talk about with my students a lot, sort of when we think about a problem, sort of whose face comes to mind. and I wanted to ask a little bit about you were talking about Latinos, and I'm wondering where does the issue of immigration of connect to the issue of

Raul Fernandez: Yeah, I mean when we're talking about school segregation as as an issue, another way to talk about that is as a problem, there's really two key problems within the larger set of issues and in terms of the impact of school segregation. One is that what we see are students in poverty, English language learners, and to an extent students with disabilities concentrated in some cities and towns within a larger state or geographic area. in Massachusetts, for instance, there are about a dozen cities and towns that are responsible for educating the overwhelming number of what are called high-need students. And that's defined by the state as those three categories, students who are are living in in poverty. students with disabilities and students that are English language learners. it is that concentration and the inability of what normally works in districts for instance where that concentration doesn't exist, what normally works with kids where those disabilities and the need for special supports and services aren't necessary, that doesn't work so well in these concentrated environments. and so that produces what we see so often are these lower educational outcomes as measured by standardized tests and and other outcomes as well. So that's one set of problems. The other set of problems involves our distance, little actual proximity from one another. the fact that we're not spending time across race, across income, across language and other identities because of this segregation, what that's producing is you know, folks who have gone through, to the age of eighteen, for instance, having often lived around and learned around people that are very much like them. that has a longer tail in terms of societal implications around policymaking, as an example, and when people are expected to make policy for people who are very much not like them, having spent very little time with those people throughout their lives, right? And so we can see how that be an issue. As it relates to immigration, to the extent that we're seeing districts that particularly suburban districts that were categorized as overwhelmingly white intensely segregated white schools for instance, some of those schools in recent years have moved to the more racially diverse category specifically because of immigration and more racially diverse immigrants moving into suburban communities. now There's a there's a difference between of course desegregation and integration itself and you know, you can have a more diverse student body but not have, you know, especially newcomers integrated into those communities, especially when the supports have not been historically there to be there for those students. and so we've seen that happening also, whereas before there was there was not as much conversation around support for English language learners in movements around school integration, absolutely, you know, in more recent times that a very important conversation to have is integration has to also include supports for English language learners. Yeah, I I will say, and not to be be totally alarmist about this, but if current immigration policy continues, I'm not sure in a decade or certainly not in a generation if we'll have very many English language learners in the K twelve environment at all. That is to say the Trump administration is enacted a policy not just against undocumented immigrants or people crossing the border but against all types of immigration except for primarily white South Africaners. and so if that policy continues under either a a Republican administration or B a Democratic administration that sees immigration as a third rail and sees that as the the the rationale in part at least for the Democrats' loss in twenty twenty four, then it may be that even a Democrat administration does not reverse the ending of various immigration programs or at least what the Trump administration is attempting to do to end those programs. so I say I'll to say that i you know support for English language learners is is certainly critical, crucial, important and English language learners provide tremendous value to our schools. and again, not to be alarmist, but I'm concerned that in a generation we may have few of them.

Phillipe: Yeah, I I wouldn't be too concerned about being alarmist. It it seems that so far the alarmists have been right. Right? So I appreciate

Raul Fernandez: There you go. There you go.

Phillipe: you keeping it real, right, and being really clear about your concerns. So I think there's some important concepts that you have raised that I think it's worth spending some time unpacking a little bit for listeners. So the first is this idea of integration versus desegregation. this is something that I've certainly heard people talk about, that these are different things, but I also I also think sometimes people think that they're the same thing or interchangeable. So let's just start there. Could you just say a little bit more about what's the difference between desegregation and integration?

Raul Fernandez: Yeah, and I'll tell you we have we have a really good example of this in Massachusetts because we do have this long standing now sixty years old Mecco program where students from Boston and some from Springfield, urban districts, either travel on their own or travel through buses to suburban districts. These are overwhelmingly black students as well as Latino students, some Asian students and even some white students. and what we've seen over the years is that the the educational outcomes for those students, those students that are in the MECCO program, versus other students who maybe applied to Mecco but didn't get in, the educational outcomes are superior. And that's great. But the other thing that we've seen is that That in terms of the integration of experience, in terms of sense of belonging, that has been a persistent issue over generations, not universally, for every student in the MECO program, but certainly for enough of them. And the thirty-three receiving districts, the suburban districts that have for now decades accepted students through this program, should be should be applauded for doing so. So there has been and is still much work to do to make sure that those students feel like full members of those communities. And there have been, especially during times of austerity, moments where some community members, even some school committee members, will say, Hey, do we still need to continue this program? Do we have enough money to do this? And question the benefits, which again, the benefits to the participants is clear, but the benefits to the community, it's itself for having a much more diverse student body and all the benefits that derive from that, is is also at least in my view very clear. I mentioned before some schools being categorized as racially diverse specifically because of immigrant populations. The same is true for some schools being classified as racially diverse specifically because of the there's a MECCO program that's bringing more diversity into a community that would otherwise be devoid of it.

Phillipe: Mm, yeah, thank you for that answer. the next thing I wanted to talk about a little bit is segregation itself. you know, in my experience, sometimes when people hear the word segregation, what they hear is the separation of racial groups, right?

Raul Fernandez: Hmm.

Phillipe: it's something that I've been thinking a lot about in my own work and it's something that I talk about with students, is that segregation is more than that. That it's more than that, and that What segregation is, it's about separating particular racial groups from power, from opportunity, from resources,

Raul Fernandez: Hmm.

Phillipe: from rights to the benefit of another racial group. So it's not just that people aren't together, right? And I wonder what do you think about that way of thinking about segregation? Does that fit your understanding? what is it? Why do people need to be concerned about it? And is it just separation or is it something more?

Raul Fernandez: Well you know, I wanna get to that question of power 'cause I think it's so important. Let let me just start by saying that that when I talk to folks in In various community types about this issue, they have different thoughts about what they want for their kids and what they think is sort of the quote unquote right thing societally as well. you know, I'm of the mind that like I get as a parent that people want what they want for their kids, right? I'm someone who who believes deeply in more permeable public school boundaries, and just because you live in a particular community, although you have a right to be educated within that. community, you should not be limited to it necessarily, that that's not necessarily the best thing for every kid. and at the same time, I understand that some folks want what people largely have in the suburbs, which is a school that produces high quality educational outcomes and is right outside my door or is as close as possible to where I live and that I don't have to decide where I'm going to live to be able to ensure that my kid has a good education and I don't have to decide or find a program that is gonna give my kid an opportunity that they can't get at the school that's closest to them. Right? And so so some of what we see happening in these urban and gateway cities here is that there are people who literally do not have the same options as some other people through no fault of their own, just by sheer result of where they've decided to live or where they grew up or where they call home their Bostonians, for instance, or Lawrence, or wherever it is, like, that is the reason that they're being denied opportunity is just because of where they're living. And would they be able to afford to live in a community like I don't know, in Massachusetts, like a Brookline or Newton or something like that, or Cambridge, then then they might have more opportunity, right? And so So this is not a result necessarily of poor, district level leadership or anything like that. you know, one could say, well, if those folks in name a city or town were running their district better, they'd get better outcomes. But when we look at the map and when we see the pattern that is so clearly evident, it is where you have, high concentrations of low economic status and by correlation more people of color in those particular communities, you see worse educational outcomes. Now it cannot be. I think it's implausible to say that all of those districts, every single urban district has has uniquely bad leadership and that's the result. That that's why those outcomes come out the way that they do. No, there has to be something here. And what I would say is this is just generations of underinvestment and disinvestment that is resulting from the way that we also fund our education system, property taxes, all those things that folks are sometimes working to address, but not enough. and that all of course feeds into this the question that you're asking about power and who has power and who doesn't. and so much of power is correlated to wealth, and so much of wealth. wealth is correlated to race, and that is to say whiteness. and and so these things are all connected. the way that I mean there are a number we can talk about remedies, but there there are a number of ways to start to to break this down. But I think any result that works for what different families want has to include both generational investments that lead to community schools in urban areas that have excellent educational outcomes, not better, not good, excellent educational outcomes and opportunity not because families are fleeing bad outcomes, but opportunity to go to school elsewhere because maybe there's interesting programs, maybe because there is more racial diversity or economic diversity and that they see that as a benefit. But right now we're being forced to choose. So, you know, my Latina daughter, for instance, like my actual preference would be for her to be at a school where most of the kids were Latino or kids of color, most. and it has excellent educational outcomes. Few of those schools exist in Massachusetts today. Very few. And you've gotta live where those programs actually are, right? and so that you know, that is some of what we're dealing with here is only solution in my mind anyway is to deconcentrate poverty and also and there's a number of ways to do that, and also to ensure to equalize outcomes across different district types. And then people can actually just decide like what they really want for their kid because there's no question that every single family wants excellent educational outcomes. Some just don't have access to it or willing to do what you know, some can afford to do something different that produces better outcomes, and others have very little options.

Phillipe: Yeah, that's a really, really helpful way of framing it. And it's it's interesting because you you sometimes hear in the public conversation this idea of parental choice, and it seems like in some ways you're talking about real parental choice, right? Or much a a much

Raul Fernandez: Right. Right.

Phillipe: broader notion of what it means to have parental choice that's not just about whether you send your kid to a public school or you know, get a voucher to go to a private school, which is the way it's usually talked about. something else I wanted to ask You about is related to the implications of some of what you're saying in terms of the nature of this problem, its depth, its history. And you didn't use this term, but a lot of people talk about multiracial democracy, right?

Raul Fernandez: Mm-hmm.

Phillipe: That's a big conversation right now, particularly threats to it. as somebody who focuses on adult learners, right, One of the things that I have observed. observed is that many of them are underprepared to participate fully and effectively in a multiracial democracy,

Raul Fernandez: Hmm.

Phillipe: but then they're supposed to go out in the world and somehow do this well. You know, and in some cases they're

Raul Fernandez: Sure.

Phillipe: in positions of extraordinary power where they're making decisions that affect the lives of people who they have no meaningful skill sets or experience of living with, making decisions with, cooperating with, problem solving with. Because of the kinds of things that you're talking about. and so I'm wondering if you could talk about it in those terms. When you think about school segregation, you think about the challenge and the possibility of multiracial democracy. what's the connection? What do you think are the implications of that, particularly given sort of the current crisis we're dealing with?

Raul Fernandez: Yeah, th and this is critical because you know we talk about the different problems around segregation. they're people will go toward different remedies and some folks are very much about investing in sort of you know cross district opportunities. Some folks even go toward vouchers, I don't go that far, or you know, other things like that. you can't school choice your way out of this problem, because you can't provide enough choice for every single kid and there are always gonna be families that for a variety of reasons are gonna send their kids to the closest school to where they live, regardless of what the Department of Elementary Secondary Education says about that school, right? At the same time, if we only focus on, you know, this sort of idea which I do like around school center neighborhood development and generational investments in urban communities, we should do that. But we can't only do that because it doesn't address this other issue that you're bringing up. and there's not a future, in my view, where under underpaid folks. I you know, sometimes I, you know, use this terms low income. I've used it myself, but really folks who are underpaid, largely the the poor in our country are working poor. These are people who are doing everything they're told they're supposed to do. They're working, right? And they still can't afford to pay the rent and and ensure quality life for their kids. I don't know that there's a future where the issues and every issue always disproportionately impacts the most vulnerable in our communities, including people who are underpaid in our community. I don't know that there's a solution to that if we don't address school segregation, in terms of our ability to understand one another, to understand the differences in our lives. It's across race, absolutely, and I would say just as important it's across income too. and there's two ways to do that. One is to housing desegregation. that is w something we should do and I have ideas around that. But it's a lot more difficult. and the other way to do that is through desegregation, is to make sure that our schools are as diverse as they possibly can be and to shift our policy to effectuate that result. all of those folks who are in Congress who who who don't understand how a woman's body works and have have lived around women their entire lives and don't understand it, to expect those very same folks who have spent little to no time around people of color to legislate in a way that actually benefits us or at least doesn't harm us, that's a fool's errand right there. And so us sharing spaces with white people alone will not save us. but I do believe that it is a necessary but insufficient component of progress moving forward. And so we talk about this multiracial, I always say, you know, multiracial, multi generational, right? But a multiracial democracy, I think that doesn't work unless we're actually engaging across race and across differences. the last thing I'll say is, you know, in my work I talk about and I've seen it in play this racial dialogue gap. And that is our ability or sometimes inability Ability to talk about race across race. there are other kinds of dialogue gaps as well, but but you know, I've seen this having worked prior to being a faculty member in student affairs at the university level is the seeing students come in, many of them coming in to college being very afraid to talk about race. And if you're afraid to talk about race, then you're definitely afraid to talk about racism. Right? And Yeah, that is after many years of schooling, oftentimes in very segregated environments. And if we can't get people to talk about these issues, then we certainly can't work together to solve them.

Phillipe: We've talked about the issue and painted a picture of some of its qualities, characteristics, its implications, its depth. let's talk a little bit about what have you been doing about it? What have you been doing to address the issue of school segregation in your work?

Raul Fernandez: For six years I served on something called the Racial Imbalance Advisory Council, which is a public body created by the state legislature in Massachusetts that reports through the Commissioner of Education to the Board of Elementary and Secondary Education. And in my last year as chair in twenty twenty four, we created a report called Racial Segregation in Massachusetts Schools. and it really was the the first public report in a generation to show just how different the outcomes in our schools are when we use race as the axis. and this is using data that comes through the districts up to Department of Elementary and Secondary Education and our analysis of that data. and it showed so clearly that That the access to opportunities and outcomes is distributed perhaps not purposefully, but certainly across racial lines in our state. And it offered 18 recommendations about what to do with that. Since then, I've been partnering with folks at for instance, Brown's Promise, which is an organization that's out of the Southern Education Foundation, Georgia, that is, looking at well, both legal solutions around school segregation. I don't work on that side, but I work on the policy side and it's put together a policy table to address this. And I've been doing work around that. just this week we hosted a policy briefing for some folks who in the ed policy world around specifically this issue and trying to both help people understand the root causes of of school segregation but then also to start to explore some possibilities around remedies and you need a big tent. you need policies at least some of them that folks in for instance the education associations the teachers are going to support and others that folks That are more inclined toward to more opportunity choice, that they might be willing to support as well and feel seen within this bigger tent around educational justice. That's not always easy to do because sometimes those folks are on opposite sides of any given issue. But for this, it really does feel to me like there are, you know, depending on what you see as the central issue around school segregation, whether you're you're more concerned around this issue of like who's sitting next to one another and positive impacts that could have. or whether you're just concerned about like equalizing opportunity across race, I think there's room for you in the movement. And so I've been doing the work with others to try to pull folks together to think about what kind of package of solutions or remedies we can we can try to put forward and get adopted hopefully through the legislature or elsewhere.

Phillipe: That's great. So I'm curious because your work bridges both Massachusetts and Georgia. any differences or similarities in the regions in terms of the this problem and how it plays out?

Raul Fernandez: Completely. Yeah, it depends where you are. the folks from Georgia think we're weird because we don't really do stuff based on like counties. I mean, counties technically exist, but if you ask most people what county they live in, I think they wouldn't be able to tell you. and in Georgia counties are much more there's a much more real, salient thing there. And so in Massachusetts, we've got three hundred and fifty one cities and towns. the vast majority of them with their own school committee that we do have, especially in some of the more rural areas, we have some, you know, either two towns will come together and create a school school district or maybe even this I think there's one case where there's five towns that do that. But for the most part, it's three hundred plus districts across the state, in some ways, you know, having levels of autonomy and kinda doing their own thing. and so one of our challenges is i you know, I think some of the folks from Georgia were saying, Well well we could do this, you know map this on at the county level and I think politically that'd be very difficult to do. So for instance, creating you know, moving districts from the municipal level to the county level, for instance, and creating these more mega school districts, which do exist in other places, I think that'd be very difficult to do. and so really what we're trying to figure out is are there ways that we can incentivize the kind of behavior we want to see within the Commonwealth and then also, you know make some policy changes that are gonna result in more permeable public school district boundaries. meaning again that you're guaranteed to an education in the community where you live, but you're not necessarily limited to it, and that we can actually sort of end around one of the one of the root causes of segregation, which is around housing segregation by making those boundaries more permeable in a number of ways. so what the folks you know the what they're looking at doing in Georgia is very different than what we're looking at as potential solutions in Massachusetts.

Phillipe: Alright, so let's go back a bit because I I know that you've had a rich and storied career

Raul Fernandez: Hmm.

Phillipe: in terms of working in education but addressing a variety of issues and not just this one. And so I'm wondering, how did you first get involved specifically in doing work around school segregation?

Raul Fernandez: Yeah. It's a good question. I was thinking about it recently. it may have been a UCLA report around school segregation. they've done many since, but this would have been god easily more than a decade ago. that that was the first time I think That this was an issue that we're dealing with right now, not an historic issue. And because I've always worked around educational equity. It's a big part of of my own story. when I was just four years old, I was, you know, tagged as gifted and talented and put in this program. being the dad now of a five year old, who's brilliant, obviously. but being around a lot of kids that age now, I mean, it's pretty easy to see like how would you even decide which of these kids should get this tremendous amount of resources and on the flip side of that deny those resources to other I it's just it's just a very weird way to go about education in my view. but that completely transformed my trajectory. And so where, you know, I grew up in public housing for a time, the schools that I that were my round the way schools were those that were producing really poor educational outcomes. the high school I would have gone to, for instance, was graduating three out of every ten students that went there. And that's just graduating high school, not going on to places like Boss University where I went to undergrad. And so Know I was able to see in my own life like just how clearly that some different opportunities lead to different outcomes. Now what I didn't see as clearly were the ways that the systems, the way that these educational systems are set up is actually creating the conditions where that difference in opportunities and outcomes is institutionalized. and that There are things that we can do to To more modestly improve outcomes for kids that are in districts or situations where they're they don't have the same opportunities and therefore outcomes as other kids. But unless we actually more meaningfully shift the system itself and make changes to the system itself, not just within district, but also at a broader level, at least at the state level, then we're never actually going to solve the problem. it's not a surprise when you see that that some districts today that are Producing subpar educational outcomes are the same ones that were s producing those outcomes a generation ago and a generation before that. The reason that Ruth Batson and so many others in Boston said, Hey, we we need something needs to change here because we're not getting the same opportunities as other kids. And that's why they started Operation Exodus ultimately and then Mecco. And so when I hear folks talk about these solutions that to me feel like they're kind of nipping around the edges, I think a generation from now, if we do that, what will be much that much different? Not much. Not much. And so not saying it all has to go, but I think that the solutions that we move forward with, if we're genuine about solving these problems, need to be the kind that dramatically reshape the way that we manage education as a system, at least in our state. and so I think seeing probably seeing that report, really put into focus for me, how what I saw happening growing up in New York and what I see happening in Massachusetts is also happening elsewhere around the country at the same time. And when you see these patterns, you have to understand you either think two things. There's something wrong with the kids or there's something wrong with the system. And I know enough to know it ain't the kids. It's the system.

Phillipe: there's definitely a tendency around many, many issues to locate the the problem in people and not in systems. so I'm wondering You know, based on your experience, is there anywhere in the country, or perhaps abroad, where you feel like there's some progress being made,

Raul Fernandez: You know, I think at scale I haven't really seen enough progress there've been experiments that have shown some progress. I'm thinking about which district is it in New York, maybe fifteen in New York that actually across their middle schools, not across race but around need, and what they did was distribute high need students across the middle schools in that particular district and they saw better outcomes for those kids in those schools. Part of that is that a lot of our segregation today is not within district segregation. So that's when you think about like busing in Boston. Like that was an issue where there was segregation going on within the boundaries of the Boston School District. So much of the segregation in Massachusetts it's overwhelmingly between district segregation. so for example, you know take a community like Lawrence, Massachusetts, which is ninety plus percent Latino and so the schools are ninety plus percent Latino, you can't move kids around and create more diverse they're just not there, right? The only way you're gonna have more diverse schools is if you somehow either combine districts like a Lawrence and an Andover or North Andover or Andover and North Andover being overwhelmingly white communities, or you create more permeable boundaries between those districts. So some kids are going here, some kids are going there. those are the ways that you do that. no district can be compelled to address segregation in another district, it takes willingness to be able to do that. Those thirty three communities that have that have students through the MECCO program, they all opted in voluntarily to do that. and so Th this is sort of the difficulty around this is there was a decision called called Millikan which to boil it down essentially said, you know, no district is responsible for segregation and or harms that are going on in another district. and really prevented in in some meaningful ways compelling districts to you know open up their enrollment or something like that from kids from other districts. That is part of the difficulty because you asked for like good examples, I think the way that the the law is understood or interpreted currently prevents compelling some of the the solutions that that may be most effective. That may not be the best way to effectuate the result we want anyway, is by compelling communities to do things that we want them to do. The best way to effectuate a result that is long lasting, think of remember MECCO programs around for sixty years, is to find ways to incentivize the kinds of partnership and behavior that we wanna see. I think that should be where our focus is. Now, this lawsuit that's that's out there right now, again, I had no part in the lawsuit itself, but I do think it's a really important thing, however, because what it does is it's it first of all, states affirmatively, The Commonwealth of Massachusetts is responsible for this issue. They can't just say, man, if all those districts did something different, wouldn't things be better? They're responsible for addressing this issue. but it also brings them to the table. You know, that report I talked about that we issued in 2024, the state's done nothing about it. It's 2026 now. It's been two years. and the state's done literally nothing to address these issues. The it's not even clear whether or not they see it as their responsibility. This lawsuit is gonna bring them to the table. Now, maybe that we never need to see the end of that lawsuit because they're finally there. Maybe they'll be willing to engage and see what possibilities exist, but it's clear that they and many others have not wanted to make this an issue. and even well intentioned people have said the issue is not about where kids go to school. It's about what opportunities they have but it doesn't solve all the problems if that's the only thing we focus on. So maybe you know to respond to your question, maybe it's that there isn't enough agreement and again that's the coalition building that we're working on right now there isn't one simple solution. It's gonna be a set of solutions and agreement on what that package of solutions should be and then using that coalition to build support and ultimately change policy. and that's all really hard to do. we're committed to doing it but if we're not seeing enough examples of this issue being addressed across the country, it's probably because of that reason it's really hard to do. yeah.

Phillipe: Yeah, you've mentioned a couple of times this idea of incentivizing and incentives being a better approach than compulsion. could you just give listeners maybe an example of what you mean by like how do you incentivize decision making or change of a district, for example, or a local school community?

Raul Fernandez: it's interest convergence, right? you've got to to have different parties that see not necessarily the same benefit, but see benefit. for those thirty-three communities that opted in to the Mecco program over the years, they saw benefit to themselves. one view may be that they were, you know, these lowly black and brown kids, let's do what we can to help them out. sure, perhaps. but there's there's cost to those districts, there's a lot of coordination that needs to happen, they need to to fight against sometimes the pushback about these kids who are, you know, coming to these schools who don't live here, and so it's not a small thing that they've sort of held the line. There's never been a district that was part of the MECCO program that has left the MECCO program, put it that way. And so you know, it's gotta be because they see the benefits to themselves as a community as well. If that ceases to be the case, then it's less likely that they'll continue participation in the program. so I think using that as an example, looking at other ways some folks, for instance, have an idea to create sort of these regional magnet schools, something that exists in In and around Hartford, Connecticut, as a result of a court case there, Chef versus O'Neill. and you know, the idea there would be to create schools somewhere along the border of a, community with less resources and ones with more, maybe half the students come from the community with less resources, half the students come from the communities with more resources, and that there's something compelling about what's happening there, something about the curriculum, that makes students say from the from the the wealthier community say, well, we're gonna forego whatever the round the way school is and go to this magnet school because it's so exciting for us. that could work. I mean there's some evidence in Hartford that's worked to an extent. There's some evidence that it hasn't necessarily produced all the outcomes they'd like to see there and that that there's some of those schools where Where the white families kind of stop sending their kids. and so there's some concerns there around that. The other issue there, I w of course, is there are some programs you say this is a program that or a policy that we can simply change and maybe put some money toward. an example of that might be Interdistrict School Choice, which exists in Massachusetts. about 17,000 students in Massachusetts that go to a school in a district that's not the school where they live through this interdistrict school choice program, is actually putting more money toward that program so receiving districts get more money when they take in a kid from any district. that doesn't require, unlike the regional magnet school's idea, the creation of new very expensive schools or the renovation of older schools also at great expense. and so that's also one of the challenges is sort of thinking about like what's gonna have the greatest effect on the greatest number of kids and families And and what is also going to be cost effective. So a dollar is a dollar is a dollar when it comes to to state budgets. You can't just make up money. and so a dollar being used in one way means it can't be used in another way. And so if we're using dollars to address this issue around school segregation, I think we have to be really thoughtful about that as well. but if there are ways that we can show benefit to suburban communities to get their buy-in on this, I think that's the best way to go forward. We need to talk a lot more about how white kids are being deprived of access to diverse perspectives and friendships and the learnings that come with it. I think we don't talk enough about that.

Phillipe: Mm, yeah, yeah. Very, very well put. So I'm wondering when you look at your contribution to this effort, what impact would you say that your efforts have had so far

Raul Fernandez: You know, I will say if we didn't produce that report in twenty twenty four through the Racial Imbalance Advisory Council, I don't think we'd be anywhere at this point. I don't know if the folks at at Brown's Promise would be involved in Massachusetts. I don't know if the folks that filed the lawsuit and pulled all those plaintiffs together would have been necessarily doing that work, so I really feel like sometimes it takes a small spark or just something to move an issue forward and I think that report has been the thing. It's cited pretty broadly in that lawsuit as an example. so yeah, I guess I'm really proud of that work. it was at the culmination of my time on the council, I will say the thing I'm most proud of is that while the folks in in positions of power and responsibility over this issue in Massachusetts, while they've largely ignored this issue and even the report that so clearly outlines the issue, the one thing they've never done is argue with the findings. and that has has so far stood the test of time. and you know, I think the only thing they're arguing about right now is whether or not it's their responsibility. so I feel really good about that. but there were a lot of people that worked on that report as well and you know, and it was very clear throughout it that that I think the folks at at the state were very uncomfortable with the fact that it was even coming out and that it was gonna show not just under this current administration but frankly under several administrations that this has been a problem that's been allowed to fester So I think that was that was pretty critical.

Phillipe: Yeah, it sounds like you all made something visible that's that was allowed to be ignored for a long time.

Raul Fernandez: when you look at the report, it's an interactive report. It's written in a way that is not overly jargony. It's written in a way that is meant for the average parent or family or resident to read it and understand what's going on in their state we wanted to write it in a way that that folks could really understand what was going on here. and I think that may be also part of the reason why it's been read so much and and folks are using it in the way that they have.

Phillipe: Yeah, that's excellent. So, what's next for you in terms of your contributions to this struggle?

Raul Fernandez: One is to annually update the data in that report and show you know what may be changing, what's staying the same to actually deepen the learnings. We covered certain ground there, most really focused on educational outcomes. we didn't really focus on inputs and there's more to to be said about what the inputs are or are not that are leading to those educational outcomes and so I think there's more ground to do there on the research side. but really what I'm most excited about is the coalition building. I think getting in front of folks, understanding what they see as the issues here and what they would want for their families. I don't believe that everybody has to want the same things. That's I think it's okay that people want different things. you know, I said earlier what I want for for my kid, and other people can want different things and I think that's okay. you know, so my focus is on talking with as many people as possible and finding ways to bring them into coalitions so that we can build a base of support, to make what'll be some some really significant change in the state, that looking back you know, years later we'll be able to say, like, wow, things are dramatically different here and that's because of the work that we did in twenty four, twenty five, twenty six and beyond. I'm not going anywhere. I'm gonna stay focused on this issue. There you know, you mentioned power before, this fall I'll be teaching a new course that I developed called Power and Policy in Education and really looking at the different ways that everyone from from kids parents, educators, policymakers like state legislators and school committee members, how they use power to impact policy, and really with a goal toward creating a more justice centered educational system, where those most impacted by policy have the greatest ability to shape it. You know, so that's some of the work that I'll be doing. I'll be teaching about that in the fall and then seeking to build you know, a coalition of folks that are that are interested in in addressing those policy issues, learning more about them and then seeking to change the way things are done here.

Phillipe: Alright, so congratulations on your course. Sounds really exciting. for

Raul Fernandez: Thanks. Damn.

Phillipe: listeners who have gotten activated by what you've been sharing, how could they plug in? How could they support the work that you're doing?

Raul Fernandez: well they can certainly check me out if they like at Raul Speaks dot com. but there's a website specifically where folks can follow what's going on with segregation in Massachusetts. nmassegregation.org. they'll be able to learn more about that. I would encourage folks to check that out. You can sign up for updates and follow along with what's going on. That's run by the folks at Brown's Promise, not me. that's a good place to to get tapped into what's happening. but if folks wanna you know are very interested in this issue and want to connect they can reach out to me directly. pretty easy to find anywhere on on LinkedIn or or look me up, you'll be able to find my email, those kinds of things. please reach out. People have already. It's been really great to to connect with new people. the more you talk about the issues that matter to you publicly, the more you will find people who also care about those same issues or they will find you. and so the more you can do that, the more you know, again, we shouldn't we shouldn't only engage with like-minded people and sometimes it's hard to find like-minded people.

Phillipe: Mm-hmm.

Raul Fernandez: and so this is one of those ways and so I really thank you, Philippe, for inviting me into this conversation and being able to engage with so many people on this issue. It's just really important. I think it's one of the one of the most important educational issues of our time, and worthy of everyone's consideration. So thank you for that.

Phillipe: is there anything else that you'd like to leave the listeners with?

Raul Fernandez: Mm-hmm. I'm not an optimist at heart. people ask you know on a panel what what makes you hopeful? I yeah, I'm not a typically naturally hopeful person. but here's what I believe. I believe that that everything around us outside of nature was created by us, right? and it's just us and the plants and the animals and the earth and the sky and the water. None of the rest of them are responsible for the world that we've constructed for ourselves. We are. And the thing that makes me feel like the a different future is possible is that if people constructed this other people can deconstruct and reconstruct something else. and so that's the thing that I always keep in mind is that that our laws can change, policies can change, ways of being can change, all of it can change, and it just requires collective action to do it. and so I would encourage people that, particularly in this moment, may feel a bit despondent, and Perhaps rightfully so, about the time we're living in, to understand that this moment was created by people for certain people, and that other people can create a different moment and different reality in the future. and we've just gotta stick with it and make that happen.

Phillipe: Rahul, thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks for listening to From Issues to Action. If you've been informed and inspired by this episode, rate it, share it, and become a subscriber. You can find additional episodes on the podcast website from Issues to Action.com and wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also follow me, Philippe Copeland, on social media.