A Recipe for Change

Meenakshi: I would say to those folks who are feeling and legitimately feeling, huge amounts of despair. Is that there's work in the local movement level that can help you. There's a way to channel that despair into action. And if you look at it from an equity perspective, there's absolutely a space for you in the movement. And so I would just say that to anyone out there.

Phillipe: Welcome to From Issues to Action. I'm your host, Philippe Copeland. In a world full of challenges, what can we do? Join me for conversations that answer this question. If you want to be informed and inspired, this podcast is for you. This episode features a conversation with Dr. Menakshi Verma Agerwal. Dr. Verma Agerwal is a director of administration and operations at the Center for Race, Inequality and Equity Studies at Harvard University. We explored how her identities shape her organizing, parenting as a motivator for action. And the need for courage and resilience in the fight for justice. We also discussed the importance of working across disciplines, the responsibility of academia to engage communities, and the power of taking action locally. I hope you enjoy it. All right, Minakshi, thank you so much for coming on From Issues to Action today.

Meenakshi: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really delighted to be in conversation with you today.

Phillipe: That's great. So I wanted to start with having you introduce yourself to the listeners. what would you most like them to know about you as a person?

Meenakshi: Yeah, I think this was this is great. I'm really excited to start off this way because I think

Phillipe: Yeah.

Meenakshi: I carry so many identities and it's it's great to be able to share them before you know, we have the opportunity to have assumptions made about you. And so you know, some of my most salient identities is that I'm an immigrant. I came to the US when I was five. I'm Asian Indian. I use the sheher pronouns. I am a A parent of three and a community auntie is a new identity that I'm embracing. as I became a parent, I realized that the auntie role is also so important because we are caretakers of a community and really trying to extract the negative connotations from that and say that you know we're positive uplifters of all children and also an organizer and excited to share here that I'm a newly minted. PhD so I just completed my doctorate degree.

Phillipe: Awesome. So let's take a minute and just celebrate that. That's amazing.

Meenakshi: Yeah.

Phillipe: I want to celebrate you. we're gonna come back to that later. You have an opportunity to get into some of the details, but I wanted to pause and recognize this newly minted woman of color PhD. My pleasure. My pleasure, my pleasure. All

Meenakshi: Thank you so much. I'm in deep appreciation.

Phillipe: right. so let's get into a little bit of Concepts here. So you might have heard that for some people equity has become a bad word, right? some people think that equity is giving preferential treatment to people who are less qualified or unqualified. Some people think that equity is anti-white discrimination. Some people go so far as to say that equity is Marxist or socialist or communist, in the sense that people are trying to impose equal outcomes on everybody regardless of your effort or your talent rather than just providing equal opportunity and then based upon how hard you work or how talented you are some people rise to the top and some people don't. So I wanted to start with how do you respond to some of those ideas about equity and what is your understanding of equity?

Meenakshi: Sure, this is a great question. And I think so relevant right now as we're experiencing sort of the swing of the pendulum after 2020, where people were using the word equity everywhere, and now it's gone back to the other side of it being sort of a word that's has a lot of different types of connotations attached to it. And I would say to those who misunderstand it, it's largely because our society is ahistorical. And I think we fail to see why equity is so important, which is really just getting to fairness and justice, because we are so ahistorical. You know, I recently was watching this video of 1974 desegregation of Boston public schools.

Phillipe: Mm-hmm.

Meenakshi: And so one of the historic narratives we have around, you know, segregation is it was in the South, it wasn't here, but you know, very clearly you're witnessing today's grandparents like you know, throwing rocks at children in school buses and, you know, painting racist slurs and screaming at children for wanting an education. And, you know, to me, if we understand that's part of what we're experiencing today, then we understand why equity is so important. and I think that the other problem is that we fail to look at it from a structural perspective and we don't look at how historically The structures have made sure that people of color, especially black people, indigenous people, and other peoples of color, including Asians and people who identify across the spectrum of Latinx identity, have been always without power. And so I think equity, without thinking about structural racism, especially in the history of this country, it leaves out the real reason why we want a fair and just society. And so To get to your question about what does equity mean to me, or how do I define it, Dr. Kamara Phyllis Jones, who's a public health hero of many of us, has always said that equity is a process. And I really agree with her because there's so much repair that needs to happen from the harm of structural racism and other forms of oppression in this country, that we are literally in that process. And I think to me, of course, it's very similar to the definition that many of your other guests have used is that, you know, making sure that people have the kinds of things they need in order to be successful, whether it's related to their health or their education. But it's it's not about equal. It's not about giving people the same thing. It's about equity and saying, like, okay, we understand that this structural disadvantage has existed for generations. Like you can use intergenerational wealth as an example of that, right? Is Existed in our society where white folks were allowed to accumulate intergenerational wealth and black and brown folks were not allowed to do that. So when you're looking at equity from that perspective, we can bring up things like reparations, which is of course controversial in itself, but it's designed to say how do we get the equitable society that we are imagining exists. And I think that there is a little bit of denial. around the fact that we are still in an equitable society and that we're unjust and we're unfair and it frankly have never given some folks the chance to be able to succeed and thrive in the conditions that we've created for them. And so I think the other reason that I think equity also has a, you know, a mixed reaction these days is because especially in the twenty twenties, early twenty twenties, it was co-opted. you know, my Citibank statement had a equity statement and you know, it's like all these corporations kind of like the greenwashing or the pink washing, it like the washing of corporations by using this terminology to say that they were with the moment. And and unfortunately people took from it whatever they meant it to be, but never actually had the real conversations about what equity looks like in practice. And so I think that that's why we are where we are in terms of equity being considered a bad word. And in fact I think it's a really important word that we should talk about a lot more, especially the context behind it.

Phillipe: Yeah, in some contexts you can actually get into trouble for using this word. So I appreciate

Meenakshi: Yeah.

Phillipe: you affirming the need to state it, to speak it, to name it. I also appreciated that point about sort of the co-option and what I also heard, the commodification of justice language, justice

Meenakshi: Yeah. Yeah.

Phillipe: imagery, justice iconography. sometimes justice practice in a way that cheapens those things, right? That

Meenakshi: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Phillipe: cheapens them and undermines them. And I think in a way, and contributes to a certain degree of cynicism that becomes attached to those those are actually really important

Meenakshi: Absolutely.

Phillipe: ideas. So I really appreciated that point. And I appreciate you moving so quickly to saying, you know, it's about practice. So let's talk about your practice.

Meenakshi: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Phillipe: You've had a long, distinguished career. You've done many things. and I would love for you to share with the audience what has equity looked like in action for you?

Meenakshi: Yeah, I'd love to share that. I just wanna go back to a point that you made very salient for me right now in the previous topic, which is that capitalism is also deeply tied to this. And in a country with the history of racial capitalism, it actually, you know, lines up quite nicely, like that of course corporations were co-opting the language and making it happen because capitalism and racism and white supremacy are all you know, the triplets as as our great leaders have called them. And so I just want to name that you brought that up and I feel like that's very salient as well. So my work in equity and action, I was thinking a lot about this and thinking about, you know, which aspect of my life where equity and action is most salient to me right now is in my role as a parent and a community auntie. You know, I think Growing up in the United States and experiencing the public school system in the way I did, I had assumptions that maybe it had shifted, you know, by the time my children went to school. And about ten years ago, I, you know, I found that my oldest child was in kindergarten and bringing home worksheets that said Christopher Columbus was a benevolent traveler. Yeah, so we can all take a pause on that. That, you know, in

Phillipe: Yeah. Yeah.

Meenakshi: twenty sixteen from, you know, nineteen eighty-two when I came to this country to twenty sixteen, you know, not much of the stock stories that are told about this country had actually shifted. And I was really I was unfortunately surprised by that. And I think I had an assumption that maybe maybe our society had shifted in some small ways, that at least we knew that Christopher Columbus was not a b benevolent traveler, And so you know, that and a c couple other things that happened at my daughter's school, including the fact that the majority of the teachers were white women, and I live in Framingham, which is a, you know, 60-40% BIPOC district with a lot of immigrant communities. you know, brought it up to the principal and heard some similar rhetoric to like, you know, we're not to your point about how people define equity, that we're not bringing in unqualified people based on race when we had never asked for that. and so a group of other parents of color and myself and also white parents came together and formed an organization called Free, Framingham Families for Racial Equity and Education. And we had four pillars of work and they were all focused around understanding racism as systemic and understanding racial equity as the key point that we were looking at for looking at how education was sort of promoted and implemented in our district specifically. And so we focused on curriculum, so looking at what kind of curriculum was brought into the district specifically if it wasn't just focused on US American history, but how it looked at global history. From a non-colonizer's perspective. Professional development. So, how are the existing educators being trained and what kind of professional development were they receiving? Policies and procedures where we were looking at how are policies implemented? We know that there's disproportionate discipline that happens, where kids of color make up a smaller percentage of the population, but are punished at higher rates. And then the hiring and retention of staff. And administrators of color. And so on these four platforms, we started lobbying to the school district. We had a petition against to remove school resource officers. so over the last 10 years, you know, we've been doing this very slow organizing equity work. You know, I always say you never can believe how much a group of tired parents can accomplish in 10 years. And because sometimes when I think about it, I'm like, God, this work's taking so long. Like, how come we haven't had these changes yet? And the truth is that equity work takes time.

Phillipe: Mm.

Meenakshi: And I think that was a hard thing for me to swallow because of course we're used to getting these results very quickly. But again, if we look at history and know that these kinds of policies have been implemented over hundreds of years, like of course it's gonna take 10 years for us to get some small changes implemented in our school system.

Phillipe: Yeah, that reminds me of a couple things that have come up recently. I don't know if you've heard a little bit about some of the language that came out of the actions in Minnesota earlier this year. people were talking about movement moms, right? And sort of

Meenakshi: Mm-hmm.

Phillipe: that a lot of the people people like sadly Renee Good, a lot of the people out in the streets were the moms, right? And it was kind of like don't mess with moms.

Meenakshi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Phillipe: and it reminded me a little bit of all the image we have of you know sort of the desegregation of schools and one of

Meenakshi: Mm, mhm.

Phillipe: the things that you often see is it's a child being escorted by their mother in a crowd of screaming white people.

Meenakshi: Yeah.

Phillipe: One woman, one child

Meenakshi: Yeah, yeah.

Phillipe: and so it it sort of reminds me a little bit of your story, this idea of tired parents. And obviously I'm not saying that all the parents were moms, but you happen to be one. and so I'm just wondering

Meenakshi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Phillipe: if if that in any way sort of resonates with your sense of not just how the work is being done, but who some of the leaders are of equity work.

Meenakshi: Yeah, I think at the at the core of it, you know, I think because our society also is in a patriarchal mindset, you know, the men of of movement work are often elevated to the status that we have, right? Like that we know leaders of movements, and then it's like, by the way, there was also, you know, Grace Lee Boggs and Yuri Koshiyama or you know, all of these other people who were mothers of the movement. That didn't really get to be known in the same way. And several, you know, black women leaders, of course, and indigenous women leaders that we don't name as quickly as we do the male leaders. So because of that, yes. And I think, you know, looking from even more recently into the welfare rights movements of the 60s, you know, even though mothers against drunk driving had its like problematic nature, it was still mothers organizing primarily for a public health issue. The disability rights movement has primarily been parents and mothers working alongside people with disabilities. And so yes, I agree. I think, you know, parents and mothers especially, and even in Boston, we have a history of moms organizing for welfare rights as well. And I think it's particularly powerful because I think the thing that people have in common who are parents who organize are they see it for all the kids. They're not like, I'm just here for my own kid. Because I don't think my own children will see it happen in their lifetime while they're in my school district. They might not at all. And I don't care about that. I care about it changing so that the next generation of a child who goes and learns about American history is not learning about Christopher Columbus as a benevolent traveler. And so I think that that's the difference. Those are the moms that are showing up, you know, even as we're seeing these things happening in the detention facilities for immigrants, which are so painful. And you see moms bringing their kids or parents bringing their kids, and I think that that's also You know, we try to protect our kids, of course, as parents, but they have to be a part of the equity work that we're doing. And interestingly enough, like we've been having a huge budget crisis in our city, and my kids have been coming with me as I testify at the school committee and the city council. And they've been showing up, they make their signs. you know, my teen is also testifying. So my middle schooler had an issue in her school where something was inequitable for boys' bathrooms and girls bathrooms. And she came home to me and I said, she said, I want to start a petition because this is unfair. And so she started a petition. She reached out, went to at lunch, she went and talked to all these other children and they all signed on the petition and they all took the petition to the principal's office and made them aware of the issue. And then they made the change and I was like, wouldn't it be so lovely if the changes happened like that? But it reminded me that our children are watching us. And

Phillipe: Mm, mm.

Meenakshi: You know, similar to you know that the desegregation of schools, like those people, those white folks, their children were also watching them. And they were

Phillipe: Mm.

Meenakshi: being told, like, yeah, throw a rock at this. But our children are also being told, like, this is unfair and unjust, and we must fight for equity, you know, with respect to who we are. We deserve to be here, we deserve these opportunities. It is in fact unfair and unjust, and we must move forward with it. And so It just made me think a lot about how, you know, in these small and subtle ways, the role of a parent is so important in the work of equity and for the next generations to come.

Phillipe: Yeah, and you also have done such a great job of reminding us of the people, the aunties, the uncles, so the folks that don't have a formal parenting role, or at least the way that

Meenakshi: Yeah, yeah.

Phillipe: the dominant society talks about it, but that they are very much part of the team. and that our kids couldn't grow and become the people that they could without these people in their lives. So I really appreciate that you keep bringing that up. Also, congratulations on having a movement daughter. Sounds like you we got some movement daughters in these streets, right? That's good stuff. That is great. That is so great. Such a great story. Yeah, my my

Meenakshi: Yes, yes, we have to we have to send them out there, right? As long as she doesn't have a petition against me one of these days, which I'm sure she will, so I'll have to honor that as well, you know.

Phillipe: boys are definitely ready to to build some barricades now and again at our house over various

Meenakshi: Ha ha

Phillipe: perceived injustices. But I I always

Meenakshi: Yeah.

Phillipe: say that they have a strong will. They just need to aim it. they need to

Meenakshi: Yeah, yeah.

Phillipe: aim it in a constructive direction. So these

Meenakshi: Which is so true, right? Because kids understand fairness and equity so early on, right? As we get indoctrinated. Yes, yes, yes. And as we get indoctrinated by the systems around

Phillipe: so clearly s with passion with passion.

Meenakshi: us, we begin to mollify some of those feelings of injustice by saying, well, that's the way it's always been and it's really hard to change things and

Phillipe: Hmm. yes. That's just human nature.

Meenakshi: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, there's always gonna be differences and you know, and so it is about creating that opportunity to say, no, I don't accept this. It's not right. It gives me a f a feeling that it's not right and I wanna do something about it. And you know, whether you see the changes now or not, or in the next generation, I think that's like what I look to how our you know, all of the things that happen in the late sixties and early seventies, like what a powerful From disability rights to health equity to civil rights to indigenous activism to young lords, like people were moving at that time in their action for equity. And I think that it's I

Phillipe: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Meenakshi: I hope that someday there's this feeling that like the next generations know that we were also pushing for this change.

Phillipe: Yeah. In my experience, courage is contagious. And so I'm wondering

Meenakshi: Mm, I like that.

Phillipe: on your journey, is is that what you've seen or have you seen something different?

Meenakshi: Yeah, I think I will say that I find that parents of color in my experience have been extremely courageous, and have been very good. We have this, you know, cultural capital that Tara Yoso talks about is that we have this ability, this innate resilience that is built into us, but also the ability to be resistant. And we have social capital where we connect with others and that builds meaning for us. And I think you know, I think this has been a very important concept for me because I think those were things I always knew about my community but didn't have the language for it. And so I think the idea of courage being contagious is very true because you know when I came together with the other moms specifically, they were mostly moms of color and I said, Hey, did you notice this? And she Yeah, I've noticed this. My kid was here for a year before yours. We've tried to get this change and it's not happening. I said, okay, let's go together, right? you never go alone. And you never do this work alone. And so that's why, you know, that courage is also like transferable. So it's like, okay, if there's three

Phillipe: Mm-hmm.

Meenakshi: of us going, it's better than me going by myself and taking all that load of cortisol in my body by myself. And so we're spreading it out and we're going in together. And I found that that made me more courageous too, to know that I had people with me. So yeah, the one of the rules of equity work is you never go alone and In fact, you can add that is that courage is contagious and that if you are able to do it together. I think one of my challenges in the movement is I've had some pretty consistent white folks doing this work alongside with me and frankly I know that they would put their body in front of me to protect me and that those are the like the real people who are down. But we also have folks that are sort of in it for the moment. you know, people who don't see the changes happening fast enough and then they get frustrated and leave and Unfortunately, folks of color don't always have that luxury. And so I've also seen a lot of burnout happen in equity work for especially women of color to make sure that we're providing and sustaining ourselves in this space as well, which is really important.

Phillipe: Yeah, that's great. It reminds me of another question I was hoping to hear your wisdom on. sometimes this work is hard. And I wonder in your experience, what keeps you going when the work gets hard?

Meenakshi: Yeah, I think it's this it's this it's like a frustration that it's like I'm unwilling to accept unfair situations. I'm a middle child, so I've always like been very aware of unfair situations. but you know, I think at the end of it, I think I still would have done this work had I not been a parent because I would have been a community auntie and also seen it in this way. But what keeps me going are not Are my children, but not just my children, because they'll always have that second conversation at home. Like if you're speaking about 9-11 at school, you're gonna get one side of it. But when you come home, I'm gonna talk to you about everything else that happened as a result of that, right? But this is also for the kids whose parents are maybe working three jobs and don't have time to share that kind of history of the United States or don't have time to show up at school committee meetings and fight for special education or English as a second language, which I was a part of as a child. or you know, DEI positions at the schools that are being cut. So I'm really doing it for them because those were my parents when they came to this country. It's not like they were able to attend PTO meetings and show up for everything because they were too busy trying to survive in this climate. And I know they value education so deeply and just because of what happens when you come here from another country, your degree isn't honored. you have to work so many different types of jobs to support your family. And so I do it for all of those people. That's what keeps me going. Warsonshire is a wonderful author and they say that no one leaves home unless home is the mouth of a shark. And I think about as an immigrant, like what brings people to this country, it's it is like, okay, we know that there's supposed to be opportunity, but it's also because what has been created by United States and other imperialist powers back home for them. Like literally have separated families from the start because we've created unsafe situations where people have to leave. And so I think, you know, I think more and more increasingly I feel that this work is for all of those people, you know, and that by extension of me doing this and bringing people on board with me, we are trying to show that there's a different side of those of us who identify as being American, you know, un United States North American people is that We are not compliant. We are not going to sit down. We are going to fight. You know, if it's local or national, people are going to keep fighting. And I think that's what keeps me going. But the challenges are significant, right? Like I said, burnout can happen very quickly. And I think we've legitimately lost people who are, tired or afraid to speak up. I think that's a huge challenge. Like people who are like, I don't want to speak up because I'm scared. I don't have immigration status. I don't have this privilege that I can come and speak from. So I use those privileges that I have to speak up. But also that, you know, we have in a way like the powers that be try to pit us against each other. especially as women of color, we've been called difficult and, you know, hard to work with, which I'm like, yeah, we are, because we're not willing to compromise some of the values that we have to keep reminding you of because it's too easy for you to eliminate them when it's convenient for you. And so I think that perception is can be a challenge, but you know, nothing that doesn't make you stronger in your resolve for wanting to continue to fight. And I think I've just been so elevated by watching parents all over the world and specifically in this moment of action, you know, standing up and saying like it's not okay with me. This is not going to This is not going to go this way. And it's sad that it took, it's taken something like this to make that action happen. Cause I think we would be more powerful if we were able to see that these inequities exist in fact all the time. but hey, get in where you fit in, right? Like if you're late to the movement, we still want you here. It's okay. Like you learn your stuff, just come in, and you know, everyone's always welcome as long as they are willing to, understand that. their their own skin is in this game, like that

Phillipe: Mm.

Meenakshi: it's not on behalf of other people that you do this work because it impacts you deeply and profoundly as well.

Phillipe: Yeah, I heard an activist say, Black Lives Matter activists say that everybody had a first time. You know, and some people's

Meenakshi: Mm, mm, yeah, yeah.

Phillipe: first time is just further along, but you

Meenakshi: Yeah, yeah.

Phillipe: also had a first time, so don't judge. You know what I'm saying? Just welcome people.

Meenakshi: Right, exactly. And and that we need, yeah, welcome people. I think that's something again that I've heard a lot from Danny Butler McKay at the Southern JP Health Center is like how do you welcome someone into the movement? because a lot of times what can push people away is feeling like, Whoa, I'm not ready and I don't know this stuff yet and I d but hey, it's it's all good. Like come in and like be willing to learn and be willing to put yourself out there in a way that you can, you know, take certain risks and push certain people then we are absolutely here for it. You know, and I think, the other challenge in movement work is sometimes we don't all have the same definition, right? And we don't have the same definition of equity. If someone's thinking of equality and I'm thinking of equity, we're gonna have a very different approach to our movement work. And I don't think that that's a deal breaker, but I think that requires some work because I think later on things can fall apart because we never had that conversation to start off with. So I think that that's A challenge that's workable in movement work.

Phillipe: Yeah, that's actually really interesting. I like the you sort of talking about like what isn't a deal breaker, and of course it begs the question, what would be a deal breaker for you in the work? Right? What would make you have to say, Mm, no, I can't do that. I can't go there with you even though maybe we're working on the same team or we're

Meenakshi: Yeah.

Phillipe: supposed to be in solidarity or we're supposed to be allies. Mm, no.

Meenakshi: Yeah, I mean that's happened quite frequently in our parent group, especially early on. I think folks were coming into it as sort of, you know, DEI light or a diet DEI, you know, like just let's make it like palatable for white folks and then we can get them in, like really sanitizing the language around it, not saying justice, not saying racism. So that was one part of it. But we also had some folks and they were mostly white, I would say, white parents who said, you know, are you sure it was racism? Are you sure it was and and to me that was kind of like you don't come into the movement sort of second guessing the lived experiences of the people who are here without us having to do the primary education of why that exists. And I think, it's important for the people who are part of the movement to do their own homework and understand. And also Just to be better at listening, listening to the experiences of people. You might not be able to relate to it, but when someone says I've gone through something and someone says, Are you sure that's really what happened? Like you don't need further, you know, gaslighting. You know, our society does that to us all the time. When you're in a movement, you need people to believe that number one, racism is structural and that you know, oppression is historic, white supremacy and patriarchy are sort of the law of the land in this country. So When you come into a movement space and start questioning some of those fundamentals, I think to me that is a sign that you're not ready for the work at this time. And you might be ready later on, but you're just there's this, you know, idea of motivational interviewing that we have. It's just like there has to be the right mindset for you to be open enough and to be able to take that in as hard as it might be to accept. I understand it's like we have certain things that are also hard to accept, but I don't think that there's value of people coming into the movement and saying like, do you think that's really, you know, X form of oppression? Like I think that that is to me was a deal breaker. I'm willing to work with folks who say, like, I really don't know, or like, can you point me to some resources? We have a website with all of this pre-work that people can do before they come to us. and so I think that that would be a deal breaker. But I as I get older I'm like realizing that people shift over time and they're understanding and their educational beliefs also can possibly shift over time. But I think I also understand as I'm older is that it's good to like not accept people because you feel bad also, right? Like it's like, no, we have movement work, we have stuff to do, we we cannot like help pull you along. We you can hold our hand and walk with us if you're ready for that. And I think that that's been an important learning as I get older.

Phillipe: Yeah, it makes me think that, another way of putting it and r you know, rather than thinking about it in terms of you know, deal breakers is what are you not willing to compromise? Right? What are you not willing to compromise and how

Meenakshi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Phillipe: The answer to that question might change over the course of your life. Right. I hear you're saying that as well. Now,

Meenakshi: Mm-hmm.

Phillipe: thanks so much for telling listeners about your work with free and in Framingham. I'm wondering in terms of any other experiences you've had with equity that you think would be helpful for people to hear about, what might those be?

Meenakshi: Yeah, I mean, I think you know, for about five years I was part of Simmons university's MPH in health equity. And it was really interesting to be a part of that program because we were able to be an online program, but we also had two in-person immersion experiences. one was a course that I designed in Boston called Racism and Oppression and Health. which looked at how the structures of City of Boston, sort of the design of the city and the history of the city, had led to the health outcomes that we see in Boston even till today. and so it wasn't just about let's share data, but it was about doing a lot of the work that's deeply connected with becoming I would say an activist in racial equity and racial justice. And so We also met with organizations who were doing this work like the Dudley Square Neighborhood Initiative and ACE Alternatives for Community Environment, who've been instrumental in shifting a lot of the injustice that was happening from an environmental perspective in Roxbury and in Dudley Square. And so it was pretty powerful. And then we would bring in practitioners from the Department of Public Health, the Himes Foundation. and other local organizations really doing this work. And especially one of my students, I think, really called me in a beautiful way and said, you know, we keep talking about this, but we haven't talked about the indigenous community in Boston or in Massachusetts, and it's not an insignificant one. And so I appreciated the call in and we were able to collaborate with the North American Indian Center of Boston. And they also shared deeply their equity work that's happening. And so I think as educators, as, faculty, as whatever level of educator that you are, there is so much powerful work that can happen from an equity lens. You know, Belle Hooks is one of my icons and when she talks about teaching to transgress, is that equity work is in an everyday classroom as well, right? Like our children are watching us, our students are watching us. And I think, you know, for the people who are educators and listening and saying, Okay, I can change my curriculum. to reflect more equity based history or, you know, not just on the months that it's like that specific month, but like integrating it into our country's history. yes, that's powerful. And how are you reacting when an aggression that's racial in nature happens in the classroom? That's also a place for your equity to play out. And that requires deep self-work and unlearning. And I think That's what I've spent a lot of time in that position doing is helping folks unlearn like what the public health system tells us about people with bad health outcomes. Is that must be something wrong with them, they don't make good choices. You know, it's very similar to what we say about parents and the educational system that maybe they just need a little accommodation and then they'll get it right. We'll give someone a backpack, we'll give someone a toothbrush. And those accommodations actually don't work if you really have an equity framework, right? We're looking at dismantling Some of the deeply ingrained oppressions that exist. And so an example of that in the classroom was like you were always looking at data in a classroom, right? And so I used Dr. Kamar Phyllis Jones's framework to say, ask them to say, when you see data, the first question you should ask is, where is racism operating here? And not is and if, it's where. And so if you look at like asthma on a map of Boston, you can see where racism is operating because It's 18 times higher in Roxbury because of the stations, the bus stations that were there, right? And so you have to ask that question, where is racism operating? And I found that that small practice was really transformative in my equity work in the classroom. And I think students really appreciated it too, because everyone acts as if data is neutral. Data is not neutral. Like even data is telling you a story. if you don't say what the history and context is behind it. And so, you know, also in my work, a second example of that is my work with Department of Public Health that I did with Abigail Ortiz from the Southern Jamaica Plain House Center around, looking at equity in how we share data and the and how racial justice is a really important part of that. And so yeah, I think there's a way that once you see it, you can't unsee it. And I and I hope for that for many people because I think as a society we've been largely asleep and it's time for folks to wake up and bring it into action into their own lives.

Phillipe: Yeah, I think Frederick Douglass said something like, The white people of America are asleep but not dead.

Meenakshi: Okay. Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's true. Right. Right. You're not dead.

Phillipe: So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good sign. So my understanding is that now you're at Harvard

Meenakshi: Yes.

Phillipe: and you're doing work, leadership work in this area there as well. Talk a little bit about that.

Meenakshi: Yeah, yeah. just about three years ago, I got a position as director of a center on race, inequality, and social equity studies. And it's a center that's focused on interdisciplinary conversation around racial and social inequality. And the founder who's my boss is Larry Bobo. He's a prominent sociologist and he had this dream of Creating a center where there's interdisciplinary conversations around race and racism and other types of social inequalities. So, you know, we bring together people from public health and education and psychology and law and you know criminal justice and bring all those people together to start talking about how these inequities are so interconnected. I mean, and that's some of the problems that we have, like I see in public health, which is my field. Which is like, okay, well, we're just speaking about it from a public health perspective. But if you want to talk about it from an educational perspective, then go talk to that person over there. And and so I think part of the trick of racism and the distraction, or the very function of racism is a distraction, as Tony Morrison says, is that we get distracted in our own thing. let me prove that I have the right standard deviation of this public health data and then that education person's doing the same thing over there. And meanwhile, these policies and practices are being implemented right in front of us. And so I'm ho my hope for the center, again, which is very new, it's just three years old, especially in this political climate, that we still continue to exist, even if it's in a smaller, more nimble sort of format, where we continue to have these discussions. You know, I think that that's what really matters is to bring people together who are doing this work. And the other part of it, it's not just academics that Are supposed to be part of this conversation. It's also the community. And which is why one of the reasons I came on board is because over 25 years I've had relationships with community-based organizations all over Boston. And I think academia has its own work to do about the harm that's been done to community-based organizations in the name of collaboration, which has actually been extraction. You know, like, we need to apply for this grant. I need a community partner. Let me get your data and then you never hear from them again. And there's

Phillipe: Mm.

Meenakshi: so many ways that we've, marginalized, both in like geography, right? how we've taken over land of the neighborhoods around our institutions, but how we've also co-opted their work and not given them credit for their research or their data or the movements that they do. I mean, I frankly find that movement organizations are so far ahead of academia. Like academia

Phillipe: Mm-hmm.

Meenakshi: has so much to learn. Just now being a person on both sides, I can really see how much academia has to learn because a lot of the work that's happening on the ground is six to ten years ahead of what's happening in academia. Because they're still

Phillipe: Yeah.

Meenakshi: writing the grant and looking for the research. And that's not to, dislike the work that's happening in research is very exp important. And I think bridging students to that research is important. But we also have to look at community organizers and movements. as very important scholarship that belongs in the canon of ac

Phillipe: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Meenakshi: of academic scholarship as well.

Phillipe: Yeah, I also work in academia, something that I often say to students is that, these institutions have been complicit in every ism that our species has ever created. And so

Meenakshi: Yes, absolutely.

Phillipe: there's a lot of reparative work that needs to be done because of the harm

Meenakshi: Yeah, I agree.

Phillipe: that's been done. And I'm not saying that no good has been done either. It's complex.

Meenakshi: Mm-hmm.

Phillipe: But the degree to which academic institutions have actually led and provided intellectual legitimacy to every single ism. Like they didn't miss one, every ism. Right?

Meenakshi: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Phillipe: it seems that there needs to be a reckoning, there needs to be some accountability for that. That's the least that can be done.

Meenakshi: Agree. Yeah.

Phillipe: and that it's more than simply serving as some sort of job readiness program, you know?

Meenakshi: Yeah.

Phillipe: for a market based economy or whatever. And

Meenakshi: Yeah.

Phillipe: so I really appreciate what you're saying about the need to build solidarity across disciplines and be in conversation, but also and these aren't your words, but really engage in some reparative justice with the broader community

Meenakshi: Yeah.

Phillipe: and service to the broader community. So I think that's really dope.

Meenakshi: I agree. And and I think, you know, I think universities in the ways that I've seen it is that one of the ways that they perceive their repair is like, okay, we'll take down this statue of a Confederate person and we'll put up a person of color in the space. But that's those are symbols and symbols can be important, but without the actual policy work to back it up, then they l are largely empty and vacuous in terms of their intention, right? Like so it's this idea that just one I mean and I you know I do think like the way indigenous communities have pushed for the removal of mascots has been extremely important and powerful, and especially because that's an agenda that's driven by indigenous people. So if universities want to repair the harm that's been done to black and brown people or the, you know, formerly enslaved people who built many of these institutions, you have to ask will this changing of the symbolic thing mean something to you? If not, then what will? And I think that that's what sometimes is missed. And and I think again in this co-opting of movement work, these signs and symbols, like something as simple as changing, you know, Anne Jemima's name to Pearl Milling Company, like symbolic in nature and what has that actually done for the movement, you know? And so I think that that's where sometimes people have confusing values and ideals around what it means to actually do equity work in action.

Phillipe: Hmm. So in addition to all the other amazing stuff you've been doing, you decided to get a PhD. What's up, girl? What made you want to do that? And and tell us a little bit about that.

Meenakshi: Yeah. Yeah, sure. I think I've always been, you know, a lifelong learner. my parents say that even before I could learn to read, I was trying to read. And I came to the US and I didn't know any English. I was part of a ESL program for a number of years till I got ramped up into my into my skills and which I'm extremely grateful for, of course. And, you know, I think, this academia kind of seduces you in a way that can be healthy and unhealthy at times. you come in and you're like, I'm a professor, you know, I have expertise in something, but then you go in and you're being compared to people and it's like, well this person has a PhD, so they have more weight on what they're saying and this person doesn't and I didn't want to fall into that, but I knew that I had special access to what I consider to be golden, research and stories that exist in the communities that I work in. And I kept thinking why are these stories of community-based movements not a part of the canon of scholarly research? Why? Because they don't have PhDs, because they don't have what we consider to be expertise, they don't have, publications. Like this is utter BS, and I was extremely dissatisfied about that. And I went into a program that ended up not being very supportive of that desire of mine to bring the stories of the movement to research. And so I did an and you know, any any person who's gone through a PhD program is not without its, you know, blood, sweat and lots and lots of tears, is that I ended up extracting myself from a program that wasn't serving me and went into a program that was. And I met with wonderful advisors who encouraged me to take this, what I was talking about with free. I said, I spoke to many parents and I said, you know, did you ever have an experience like this? And I heard from someone who said, Yeah, we wanted a community center in our neighborhood, and my children had long grown up, but we fought for it, and it came in after 15 years and it was the most wonderful thing. Or, you know, I know this story about my grandma who organized laundry workers to come together because of what was happening in their community. And You know, I kept hearing those stories and I said, these stories are so important. And I if I felt some kind of way of becoming a part of this community through free, other people might be feeling that way too. And so let me explore that. So that was part of my exploration. I got to interview 10 amazing people who are doing movement work, who identify as caregivers of some kind. So as you said, they're not just parents, but people who are adjacent to caring for others, especially children, and our BIPOC. And so I wanted to classify what's that special thing that we have where we come together in support of one another. And what does that mean for us? What are the challenges? What are the struggles? and it was it was really exciting. I would have to say I was really excited to be doing this kind of research. And so by the end of it, it was really exhilarating to put this information out there and feel like I've told one of the hidden stories of our society, and I want to continue to tell it.

Phillipe: That's great. That leads right to my next question.

Meenakshi: Yeah.

Phillipe: you've come so far, you've done so much. What's next for you?

Meenakshi: well, it is a hope of mine to take the work that I and I'm glad I'm saying it here in a public forum so I can be accountable to it, is to take the research that I've done for my dissertation and translate it into a book, like an activist cookbook of a kind, which is, here are some stories of people who did this work. And if you yourself like are bearing witness to these injustices, these inequities around you, here's some steps that you can take to Try to form your own organization or organize in your community. And just a very simple thing, but I would like to make sure that these stories do not get lost. And and that's what's important to me because I think like you said, it's contagious. And like this type of organizing is also contagious. And I think that once people read about people like themselves who are have careers, have children, have lots of caregiving responsibilities across generational spectrums. are still showing up to fight for the for the people who for themselves and for the next generation of people in our society. So I hope to do that. I continue my activism work in Framingham. We're still fighting for a budget. We're still showing up and testifying and organizing people and I don't see that going away anytime soon. I also am organizing more in my own community of South Asians who you know, it's this little sort of last minute door knob statement or whatever it's called. But that we have we've been victims of the model minority myth ourselves as Asians. And we're really really have bought the myth of proximity to whiteness as our ticket and it's not serving us. And I think my hope is that with this aspect of my identity that I continue to organize similarly thinking South Asians. who are for immigrant rights and who are here to fight for the basic human rights of people who come here and declare that they need freedom and safety. and so that's one of my next steps and hopes. And then, continue to be a community auntie and, just lean into that and hopefully watch young people grow and become part of the movements with us as well.

Phillipe: That sounds magnificent. so I'm gonna give you just a really brief opportunity to do a little bit of what you talked about in terms of your cookbook. and I'm just wondering for people who are listening who are saying, I am really fired up and I want to take action, I want to promote equity, but I'm not sure what to do or where to start. where might that person begin?

Meenakshi: Yeah. I mean, I think that's a great question 'cause sometimes we don't do the work 'cause we don't even know where to start. And I say that I'm always talking to people. It's like, you can just have a conversation with someone and see where they line up and say, Hey, did you notice that, that this program is being cut or did you notice that this thing is happening? And you start to get people's values revealed to you as you talk to them. And so it doesn't happen by Saying, like, I'm doing an organizing meeting on Friday at seven, everybody show up. But it is group-based social, you know, networking, not the online kind, but person to person. you know, you see someone's child, you see a parent who's struggling with their child with a disability, you start talking to them, and then they begin to understand how racial inequity and disability inequity are all tied together. And so I would say, like, get three for anyone who wants to start the work. Just get three people who agree with you on one particular topic. Start talking to each other. And if you see that there's a space for you to organize locally first, then find out the groups that are already doing the work around you. You don't always have to start over again. There may be people doing those works in your communities. And so look for them and go in with humility and appreciation and And begin to learn the way that they've been doing the work they've been doing. And then see if there's a space for you to get involved. If that work doesn't align with you, give it a little bit more time. I think we also are very impatient and expect things to be a certain way. I had one parent sending me like droves and droves of AI content about how to push the city council to do the kinds of things we wanted to do. I said, this does not align with our values and beliefs. Like we you cannot take this from like a AI generated model. This is relational work. you have to come to the meeting or you have to show up on Zoom. You have to put your voice out there. There aren't shortcuts to this. And that's why the work is long. And so my last piece of advice would be just never ever ever give up. And and I think that this this work can't happen if we give up. And and if you need to rest, that's really important and that's okay. Take your time to rest, but then get back up again because this movement has to keep going.

Phillipe: Yeah, that was really great. As we move towards the end of our conversation, I'm just wondering, is there anything else that you would like to leave the listeners with?

Meenakshi: I think what I'm really sitting with is that, how important local organizing is, is that in the world that feels so big and is so big, there are things that we can do at a local level that can shift things in a very small way, but will be important and impactful over time. And so I would say to those folks who are feeling and legitimately feeling, huge amounts of despair. Is that there's work in the local movement level that can help you. There's a way to channel that despair into action. And if you look at it from an equity perspective, there's absolutely a space for you in the movement. And so I would just say that to anyone out there. And I'm always available to chat with people who want to do similar things. I think, as parents too, we've become really good organizers because we organize so many things for our children, either well or not so well. We all mess up, but that's the same thing with movement work, is that we all mess up sometimes and it's okay, you still have to keep going and you still have to keep pushing for the fight.

Phillipe: Yeah, that reminds me of something that MLK said in one of his speeches. He said, we have to keep this movement moving. Yeah, yeah.

Meenakshi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that inertia is probably the biggest enemy of this type of movement work and I think by design that's what the despair is supposed to do, but we can't we can't submit ourselves to that.

Phillipe: Thanks for listening to From Issues to Action. If you've been informed and inspired by this episode, rate it, share it, and become a subscriber. You can find additional episodes on the podcast website from Issues to Action.com and wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also follow me, Philippe Copeland, on social media.