The Disruptor

Phillipe: Welcome to From Issues to Action. I'm your host, Philippe Kobland. In a world full of challenges, what can we do? Join me for conversations that answer this question. If you want to be informed and inspired, this podcast is for you. This episode features a conversation with Kathy Lopes. Kathy Lopes is a professor at Simmons University School of Social Work, first vice president of the Association of Massachusetts School Equity Leaders, and author of the book Change the Narrative How to Foster an Anti Racist Culture in Your School. We talked about what equity and anti racism look like in action. Thanks for listening to From Issues to Action. If you've been informed and inspired by this episode, rate it, share it, and become a subscriber. You can find additional episodes on the podcast website, fromissuestoaction.riverside.com, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also follow me, Philippe Copeland, on social media. So Kathy, thanks so much for being on From Issues to Action today. I wanted to with letting you introduce to the listeners. And what I'd like to ask is what would you most like them to know about you as a person? Kathy's Journey to Becoming a Champion of Justice, and how history is on the side of changemakers. I hope you enjoy it.

Kathy Lopes: Yes, hi. Thank you so much for having me. think ⁓ every space, the I answer this question is to always begin with identifying as a social worker. I am a social worker. In ⁓ space enter, particularly as I'm talking about equity work or working in community or working professionally, ⁓ my training ⁓ as ⁓ clinical social worker. But I do feel like regardless of the role in this space, I'm always bringing social work skills into the conversation, into strategizing, into thinking about systems. So that's how I would like to begin. I think ⁓ addition, ⁓ have ⁓ in this space as an educator, as who ⁓ is connected to the idea of social justice and racial justice. I am also a constant student and learner. That's really important to me in this journey. I, yeah, ⁓ ⁓ that sums up a little bit of we'll talk about today.

Phillipe: That's great, that's a great way to start. So you may be aware that for some people equity is a bad word. Some people see equity ⁓ giving preferential treatment to unqualified people. Some that it's discrimination against white people. Some people that it is Marxist, socialist, communist, that you're trying to make it so that people have the same sort of life outcomes regardless of their own effort. or talents rather than what should happen, which is just that people should have equal opportunity. So my first question is how do you respond to those criticisms of equity? And how do you define equity? ⁓

Kathy Lopes: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting and even thinking of a word like equity, the all of the negative connotations that you were able to pull up that shows up in this work. And how did that how do we get here and where did that stem from? The other piece before I answer this question is just also acknowledging in my current role. I serve as a director of diversity equity inclusion in a K through 12 school district. So although equity is a broad term that can be applied, I will be speaking in the context of how I have seen it ⁓ or how I use it to really try to lift up the community. Equity to me and working with families and educators and trying to help them understand what does equity actually mean? really try to differentiate it from the word equal because think we all understand equal is just giving the same to everyone everyone having the same access ⁓ and equity is to me particularly in relation to ⁓ education recognizing ⁓ and that there are ⁓ systemic differences that have allowed opportunity and access to be granted to certain individuals and certain groups and being that there are certain individuals and certain groups who haven't had access. ⁓ So equity is ⁓ in mind is really reshifting some of internal structures and systems that and really about this particular group hasn't been afforded this opportunity access, they may need additional support to get the same access. Equity is not necessarily related to outcome. It's related to... creating similar levels of options and access so that everyone can participate and have the opportunity to be successful. So don't know if that helps. Another ⁓ is I think folks sometimes struggle with the idea of equity is if there isn't an understanding ⁓ that I've had some privilege ⁓ or additional opportunity, ⁓ it feel like something's being taken away because I've been so accustomed to having it and really folks ⁓ recognize again, those systemic institutional reasons why maybe you've had this privilege, haven't seen it as privilege, and that it's not taking away from you, it's maybe supplementing or adding additional to those who haven't had that same entrance.

Phillipe: Yeah, that's extremely helpful. Thank you for that. And I appreciate you reminding us that you actually have equity in your job title. And so for you, this isn't just a philosophical discussion. It's actually what you do for a living. So let's get into that. So for you, what does equity look like in action in the work that you do?

Kathy Lopes: Not at all. Yeah, I mean, I think again, it begins with the educating and informing folks and having folks really understand what the levels are, what the barriers are, where does the system come into play? And I don't really think you can have a conversation about action until there's recognition and reflection about where the inequity lies. ⁓ have to then pinpoint kind of what has been the barrier. How do we disrupt that system or ⁓ a ⁓ how do we maybe put pause this ⁓ that have access to and open it a little wider to those who haven't ⁓ had access and that can look policy. could look at, we could talk about resources. Reshifting some of our biases that keeps people out of the room and out of the conversation and making sure we're doubling down or tripling down on increasing particular folks in the conversation. ⁓ So a lot of ways, particularly in education, where this is an actionable idea.

Phillipe: Yeah, so maybe you could provide a couple of examples, one from specific sort of work context that you're in, ⁓ also I'm that you're doing some work at the state level as well. And so maybe you could provide maybe an example from each of those sort of ⁓

Kathy Lopes: Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure. Yes. Yeah, think, ⁓ I mean, there's so many examples, but one, for example, as it correlates to some of the state work, the state DESI has really been pushing for us to ⁓ the number of educators of color in our public school systems. ⁓

Phillipe: And what is DESI, just to make sure people understand.

Kathy Lopes: Sure. In Massachusetts, it's our Department of Education of Elementary and Secondary Education. So it is our governing kind of regulatory system for our public schools, all of our schools. ⁓ DESI kind of sets the stage ⁓ ⁓ they have ⁓ taken ⁓ and effort to push public schools to increase the number of educators of color in our school system. ⁓ to someone who may not know the statistics or may not have kind of recognized ⁓ that our public school systems are made up of 80 % of white educators. And that might not be something that you know if you're someone who identifies as white. You may have gone through a system thinking that that seems normal to me. But for students of color, particularly myself, I didn't have a lot of educators of color. didn't see lot of leaders of color in education. So I think we can share that information and have that understood as universal, ⁓ then we start talking about what does it mean to then to recruit and retain educators of color. what that means is we have to be really targeted about the population we're looking to bring into our communities. ⁓ have to create opportunities ⁓ educators to have. more access to the licensure and the credentialing that might come easier to certain groups or there's more opportunity for certain groups. ⁓ we really have to prioritize understanding what gets in the way ⁓ educators of color staying in the teaching profession. So there's lots of different layers, ⁓ I think that's one that is universally happening across the state of Massachusetts. ⁓ again, without the history and context, it might look like preferential treatment to educators of color. when, you really understand, they make up a minority of the profession.

Phillipe: Yeah. So there was another question related to the state level work. And I'm wondering, in terms of equity work in the K to 12 area, What have you seen that's similar or different across communities in Massachusetts? Because we're a little state, but we're still diverse, right? So I'm just curious, what have you seen in terms of the differences, the nuances? And I know that we're going to talk about your work specifically in Newton in a moment. But just give me a sense of different, what's similar in terms of looking at different communities.

Kathy Lopes: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think something that I've really done more research on and noticed is ⁓ the disproportionality between educators ⁓ students when it comes along like racial lines. ⁓ if we have an educator workforce that is 80 % white, that is not ⁓ to the students that are engaged in public schools and their demographics. ⁓ ⁓ do think if we look at most public schools, we will see that disproportionality across the board. even in our schools, our city schools, Springfield and Boston and Worcester, we will still see a higher proportion of ⁓ students of color in comparison to educators of color. So I think that's a place, universally, we can talk about is where equity work really needs to be. ⁓ needs to be happening. What I do know in some of the work that I've been engaged in and some of my partners across the Commonwealth is there is a reoccurring theme of why educators of color are either recruited or retained. Some of are unconscious biases that show up in interviews and who we perceive as qualified or educated or credentialed. There are some reasons why folks of color don't perform at the same level whites do on standardized testing, which is needed to be in the teaching profession. And then also the experience when you're in a predominantly white teaching community of the microaggressions and the harm and the judgment that many educators of color have articulated experiencing. So sometimes it doesn't feel like a viable profession because of the internal struggles that you have to navigate.

Phillipe: what's your specific role ⁓ to the work that Desi does?

Kathy Lopes: So as a DI director for a school system within the state, we do have to look at kind DESI's guidelines and DESI's direction ⁓ what we're prioritizing. So, you know, DESI ⁓ identified that literacy is an issue here in the state of Massachusetts. It is across the board, but we're also seeing disproportionality in students of color ⁓ having literacy rates in comparison to their white ⁓ classmates. So an agenda. that I think Desi is really pushing and promoting across the Commonwealth. we talk about educators of color, that is something that Desi is saying that we need to prioritize. They are ⁓ to create ⁓ to support. testing support to look at how do we give more mentorship to ⁓ to become leaders in our school system so they can become principals and superintendents and have voices at the executive and administrative level. In my then, I can use Desi's guidance to kind of justify ⁓ why I'm being intentional about certain actions, whether it's training, ⁓ whether it's protocol and policy, ⁓ whether it's creating for a particular group that may look like I'm not providing resources to another, I can then justify and communicate ⁓ educate folks on why this is ⁓ case. ⁓

Phillipe: All right, so let's zero in on the particular community that you're serving. And I wanted to start because may not be familiar with Newton, Massachusetts. So maybe we could just start with just a kind of an intro to Newton, just tell people a little bit about the community, ⁓ then get into your specific job in the Newton Public Schools.

Kathy Lopes: sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sure, Newton is a city, although it has a suburb feel, it is a city directly outside of Boston. ⁓ ⁓ do have students ⁓ from ⁓ who go to Newton through our MECCO program. And if you're not familiar with our MECCO program, it's a program where students of color in the city of Boston can join a lottery and be placed in a neighboring school district by choice, by parents' choice. So Newton has the largest MECCO student population of approximately 400 students in the district. Newton Public Schools homes about 12,000 students and 2,500 students. 23 school buildings, principals across the board. So, but when we think about the demographics of Newin, it is a predominantly white city. Our school system is predominantly white. 60 % of our student makeup identify as white, 20 % identify as AAPI. And I believe... 8 % is Latino or Hispanic and 6 % is African American. So when you look at that and then you look at, we're right in line with about 83 % of our educators identify as white, right? So that disproportionality I was talking about. So we do have students, 40 % of non-white students who don't see themselves reflected by the educator workforce. by the leaders in the schools. have students that are coming in from the city of Boston who are very familiar with the culture in which they're represented in their home communities and feel a little outplaced ⁓ our school systems. is known as an incredibly high performing school district and when comes to academics, so there are very high standards. ⁓ It is ⁓ considered a affluent city. All of that comes into play when we talk about power and dynamics and resources and demographics.

Phillipe: Yeah, that was really thorough. Thank you. how about an example of how this plays out in day-to-day work? Like maybe the Abbott Elementary version ⁓ of ⁓ Day the Life of Kathy Lopes. ⁓ All right, us a little bit of that.

Kathy Lopes: Yeah, sure. Sure. So the ways I, there's so many ways I engage in this work, but I would say one way is around some of our discrimination. incidents and reporting. So in my role when I came in in 2020, one of the priorities was to develop a non-discrimination protocol, which then held every adult in system, every staff member adult in the system accountable for addressing, investigating, and ⁓ looking any reports of discrimination. ⁓ So have a protocol that ⁓ and can utilize if they feel like they've experienced or observed some level of discrimination that covers all of the protected classes. So not solely race, but gender, religion, all of the things. ⁓ We see ⁓ the frequency of report is connected to race, racial incidents. So ⁓ what could like ⁓ is black students called a different student's name. That is something that still happens in our school systems where they're called another black student's name. There might be an issue where a white student verbally assaults black student and yet because of unconscious biases, the reaction is to discipline the student that reacted to the harm. ⁓ is something that we have been working on in not only having a place where someone can report it and then someone is assigned to do an interview to get all the information and then to make a determination. And I seen that be something that not only students but staff have found very supportive, a place to go where they can be legitimized in the harm they're experiencing. And so ⁓ an example of something that happens daily. 12,000 students, 2,500 staff. can imagine we're not immune ⁓ as as ⁓ I like I've done really good work and we've done really good work. We're still not immune to some of these these daily occurrences.

Phillipe: thank you for that. So step into the time machine for a minute. Let's go back. Tell us did you first get involved in doing equity work?

Kathy Lopes: Mmm. Yeah, I think ⁓ that's a story of self. It's a story of being a Black child ⁓ a predominantly white community, growing up in a predominantly white community, being a child of immigrants in which English was their second language, and what that experience was like for me. ⁓ And able to reflect at an older age that there was a lot of unintentional harm. ⁓ And I think I was surrounded by very well-meaning good human beings and friends and educators and adults who still, because of whether privilege or just lack of understanding or opportunities to be held accountable, that they harm. ⁓ on myself, my siblings, a few other students who may have looked similar to me. so I ⁓ just ⁓ a passion to be able to disrupt that or provide support for others who may ⁓ experiencing that. I'm also a Black. person, black woman who didn't have a black educator until my senior year in college and had ⁓ a handful of black professors in my graduate school. So it was really important for me to highlight ⁓ the ⁓ of folks who look like you, not only ⁓ to the information ⁓ in way that connects, ⁓ but also see people who look like you in these positions of educating, of power. of knowledge and so that is really where I just wanted to that for others to have these experiences and also how do I engage in disrupting the things that I know are harmful whether they're systems or behavior or lack of education about history and impact. ⁓

Phillipe: so how did you get from there to here? Like you're young Cathy observing and experiencing what's not what's not yet happening and just saying, I want to make that happen in the world. ⁓ So how did you go from there to what you're doing now? ⁓

Kathy Lopes: Yeah. Yeah. So story is ⁓ got into college. I'm actually, you can't see it ⁓ the call, but I am rocking my UMass hoodie. I'm a UMass Amherst alum. hey, ⁓ shout out to UMass. And ⁓ when ⁓ arrived a freshman, I immediately was kind of struck by the diversity.

Phillipe: Same, same.

Kathy Lopes: Don't get me wrong, UMass is still a predominantly white institution, but I had more opportunity to see black and brown students in this educational space. through that journey, I started to feel affirmed. I started to... release maybe some of my desire to assimilate in a certain way. I started to really celebrate things about me like my hair or how I danced or music I listened to. so I became drawn in sociology. ⁓ went an undecided student. thought like sports management was going to be my thing. I quickly realized like ⁓ management my thing, those courses weren't my thing. ⁓ But sociology, unpacking ⁓ and the different experiences ⁓ lived by different humans and how that wasn't necessarily because of choice ⁓ it wasn't because of lack ⁓ interest or ⁓ of... what do we call it, because that there were things in place that really allowed some people to be successful and not. ⁓ that, ⁓ the time I graduated, I had all this interest in shifting systems and communities ⁓ ⁓ work seemed to be ⁓ thing that I thought I could do it in. So became a social worker right out of college. My very first job, I was a social worker at the Department of Children and Families. I worked with adolescents ⁓ who struggling with school ⁓ and in their community. Through that journey as a social worker, you get to play a lot of different roles in a lot of different institutions. So whether it was child welfare, ⁓ it was clinical work with young children, I did some policy work in Washington DC around mental health. I worked as academic ⁓ advisor in graduate school and I'm also an alum of Simmons University's social work program. I know you are too. And I kept, you I was always drawn to systems and equity and resources and access disruption of harm. That's been a constant regardless of where I've been, what role I've played, that fire in me ⁓ that was kind of... born out of young Cathy and still lives today, I just find spaces to do it and do it within the context of the organization. But education has always been a default place I have found my social work experiences to be. And I think it's because where I was most impacted as a learner and understanding myself in the world around me.

Phillipe: thank you for that. it sounds like sort of your background, your identities and where they come together has shaped your professional shaped your professional identity formation. ⁓ And I'm wondering does that shape your actual practice of equity, right? Who is the who that you bring to the work and how does that shape the work?

Kathy Lopes: Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, and it's hard because it's really hard to separate at this point. know, when I open up, I'm a social worker. That's who I am and whatever job I'm in. this work has to be ⁓ work. It has to be purposeful. And is going to be, ⁓ you consistent across the board. And I have also be able to ⁓ offer strategies and solutions that aren't just based off of kind of like feelings. So I have learned how to articulate of passion into ⁓ concrete action. I've been able to help use my story ⁓ connect people, to have a narrative and a perspective that they can draw on even if it's not their own story. But ⁓ that within me, that justice ⁓ is something that I think people love and are drawn to. And... anyone who's moving in kind of passion work recognizes that you're not always welcome. And these systems in place sometimes make it very hard for you to move in authenticity of what you believe is just. ⁓ what you want to break down because you understand it's harmful. So I think every social worker probably has a story of ⁓ triumph ⁓ also has a story of being pushed out of somewhere or ⁓ like they weren't successful because the system around them just did not want that passion and that purpose to come to fruition.

Phillipe: That sounds like a great couple of stories that you might be able to share. So I wonder, would you be able to share a story of triumph and a story when didn't go so well in the work?

Kathy Lopes: hahahaha Yeah, I think a story of triumph. I really think about my work when was little later, I returned to the Department of Children and Families in the as assistant commissioner for foster care adoption adolescent services. And in this that was really intended kind of think about the foster care system and be more innovative, I started to recognize all the institutional racism and classism that played into how decisions were made. made about which children were removed from their homes, what homes were seen deemable and fitting for children, the that judges made decisions with the unconscious and implicit bias about what is safe, what is unsafe, what is what is not smart. ⁓ And so I was... a strong advocate for these policies that made it hard for Black grandmothers to keep their grandbabies in their home or to make decisions about ⁓ parents who fell in love with a child saying, it's my child now, and somehow having more rights than the biological child who really was able to reform and show up as a parent. There was one particular situation where there was a Black father who ⁓ was fighting his life to get his daughter back. lot of backstory as to how it was really unjust that his daughter was even removed and a lot of systemic stuff that got in the way of him being informed to show up and to do to be at court and all of these things. And there was a family that fell in love with this child and they were really resourced and they had a lot of connections and they were fighting really hard to keep this child. And I did everything in my power to get it to a place where this father had a chance. had a chance to demonstrate. why he deserved to have his biological child. And was a hard fight. had to, one of the advices my supervisor at the time ⁓ was I understand your passion about this, but you have to be ready to show up ⁓ and make an impeachable argument as to why this father deserves it. Your passion alone is not going to get you where you want. ⁓ So one of the lessons of kind of like regulating why it mattered to me and helping folks understand why it just mattered to our society and to our systems and to human beings. And he did. He got custody of his child. Last I checked, they were thriving. remains one of ⁓ proudest. ⁓ accomplishments because it took so much fight. It took so much fight and was able to bring some community in, ⁓ but were a lot of powers and resources and influential voices that were in the way ⁓ of that

Phillipe: So guess related to that, I wanted to ask you about impact, right? And so you've been out in these streets for a while, ⁓ And I think when you sort of look at where you've where you ⁓ are, and the ways that you've tried to fight for equity, do think about the impact of the work that you've done so far?

Kathy Lopes: Mm-hmm. Hehehehehe I feel really successful ⁓ in so many ways. think for me, this is always about a collective movement, though it's personal. I recognize that that shift and change has to come with a community and has to come with allies and co-conspirators. And I think that ⁓ there been so many moments in my career where I have seen people rise to the occasion ⁓ or safe enough to show up and have a voice and see change happen. And I think ⁓ that's the impact. So often in this work, there are these really loud voices ⁓ can stop and say, we got to ban those books or ⁓ don't want this, or we need to prioritize AP Russian over social emotional learning. And what really believe in is if we actually elevate the voices of folks who want this work and who recognize that this is important because they aren't voiceless. They don't feel all the time. They don't feel like they're heard. ⁓ in creating opportunities for these folks to actually come out and say it, ⁓ learned that it far outweighs the small number of folks with loud voices. And that has ⁓ over over and over again when we have been, when I have been able to be a part of or invite a larger voice of community about why this is important. it always prevail. And that is something that keeps me ⁓ to showing up because there have been successes when folks are able and provided the opportunity and safety ⁓ actually say, no, we know they don't want it, but we want it. And there's more of us and we're louder ⁓ we can talk about it a little deeper. ⁓

Phillipe: He really anticipated my next question, is about motivation. ⁓ When the work gets hard, what keeps you going?

Kathy Lopes: Mmm. I think, again, and giving up on it would be, I wouldn't be able to survive ⁓ move through my life. shifting, you know, I've had conversations when things have been really low and someone's like, go into it or just go do this. And that'll never be me. That'll never be me. And I think that's also what makes me me in this work that I just I am a forever believer in the possibilities. And that carries a lot of pain when when you're not successful, but feeling like I'm ⁓ placed here. to navigate this path for so many others is ⁓ keeps me going. Again, it feels purposeful. And I think I bring a skill that is important to this work, ⁓ being someone can navigate a lot of different demographics and spaces, being someone who... has been trained in the way that I've been trained. I do think that I have some skills that are really helpful to this movement. And that is just, that's just who I am and who I'm gonna be. ⁓

Phillipe: so understand that you also wrote a book about doing this kind of work. Talk about the book!

Kathy Lopes: Oh yes, yes, yes. The book, which is called Change the Narrative, How to Foster an Anti-Racist Culture in Your School, the book came right around 2020 where we saw all of the racial unrest across the country after George Floyd was murdered. And I had just started my job as a DEI Director in Newton. and I quickly befriended a black male principal at one of the high schools, Henry J. Turner. ⁓ were working together, the pandemic happened, everyone became virtual. We to communicate as I was offering support on how he as a principal could really support ⁓ what happening with his students with George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery and some other ⁓ black. black humans who were murdered. And he had told me he was writing a book and he would ⁓ check in and be like, what do you think about this? And I was just kind of ⁓ support. And then he said, why don't you write it with me? And I said, absolutely not. That is not on my list right now. I don't, that's, don't even know where to begin. And he really encouraged me and he's like, I actually think you would add such a great layer to it. So we ⁓ and we this book. We wrote it in the pandemic. We wrote it. virtually, we were sharing things back and forth, of our virtual, all of our conversations and planning were virtual for the most part. And what we produced was something that is intended for folks who want to lead anti-racist justice work in their school systems. it could also be applied to organizations that are really committed to this idea. And What is great about the book is because he's a principal who has come through as a trained educator, classroom educator, he was able to provide the lens of being a school building administrator, being a classroom teacher and understanding the nuances of educators and parents and students and learning. And I was able to kind of bring the social work component in is how do you actually shift a culture? How do you actually shift mindset? How do you have folks buy into understanding why? this work matters. So I think we were able to really meet and create something that feels really practical, but really pushes folks to do some self work, some self reflection and some learning in order to do the practical work. yeah, that was, it's to think back that we did that virtually. It's crazy to think we wrote it in seven months ⁓ and. I still feel that it's incredibly relevant. It breaks it up into what you need to think about and who you need to pull in. community is, there's a whole chapter on how to engage your community ⁓ students and caregivers and community partners ⁓ do this work as well.

Phillipe: Yeah, sounds like a great book. How people get their hands on it?

Kathy Lopes: We are on Amazon, so you can find us on Amazon. And if you just Google the book, different bookstores sell it. I also like to shout out buying books from bookstores when you can. But it is out there. And surprisingly, ⁓ every month we're still getting reports that books are selling. that brings me some level hope.

Phillipe: That's great. That's really, really excellent. So you've shared so much with us, but I got to ask you a little bit more. we've talked about where you've been, where you are. What's next for you?

Kathy Lopes: Thank you. Mm-hmm. is next for me? I am a glutton wanting bigger, more, more impact. So I am someone who's never satisfied. I am also who has, you know, like eight different roles, ⁓ whether it's my nine to five I'm consulting or I sit on boards or I'm writing books. That is just who I ⁓ am. So I would love to think about this work ⁓ I would love to think about how to ⁓ engage ⁓ systemically across education. And I think a lot of that ⁓ comes with ⁓ A lot that comes with having consistent messaging, having the right information and data ⁓ shared. with folks. I don't know exactly what it is, but it's, you know, it's one of those things where my mother's like, are like, ⁓ you're And I'm like, I'm never good. I'm never good, which I think sometimes makes her worry. But I think in that way, I'm ⁓ my father's daughter that sense. And care and worry is also a part of how I was raised and loved. So.

Phillipe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kathy Lopes: I don't know, but if you were to talk to me in a year, I think you'd see ⁓ I'm doing something bigger. don't want to say better, but just in terms of impact and reach, ⁓ that's on the horizon. Thank you. ⁓

Phillipe: Yeah, I believe that. I believe that, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so thinking about folks who are listening to this who are also concerned ⁓ the issue of equity, particularly in the K to 12, ⁓ they don't necessarily work in that system themselves. ⁓ so if they're like, hey, how can I support the work? What you have to say to those folks?

Kathy Lopes: Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. So if you are a caregiver or a parent of a student, I would say utilize kind of your voice ⁓ ⁓ up, to show up, whether it's school committee meetings or school boards, ⁓ ⁓ engaged with your building leaders around kind of what is happening in the school. ⁓ I do recognize that there are reasons and barriers certain parents aren't able to engage in the way maybe some parents with additional resources are, and that is also part of the system. Our PTOs are wonderful places, but they're made up of parents who are able to offer that time the resources. So as parents, really engage with your school community. I always encourage families to run for school committee to be a representative on the school boards because ⁓ That is also disproportionately led by white members who are making decisions about curriculum and budgets and what is the school highlighting, who are they hiring ⁓ leaders for the school districts. So I really always encourage whenever we can to ⁓ ⁓ for office and holding those positions and speaking on behalf of the communities we care about. I know also a lot of the community work that happens in education, our families like ⁓ Newton, there's families organizing for racial justice. And a lot of these towns and cities have these communities of people coming together to say, how do we create informational sessions or how do we have speakers? How do we educate, do book talks? How do we show up at our school resisting? ⁓ something that we know is harmful. So a few years ago, there was a very small group, I think that was organized around Moms of Liberty, who came to our school committee and said, we need to get rid of DEI. We need to have a, there's no color, a colorblind kind of philosophy. ⁓ not only am I ⁓ a professor of dynamics of racism and oppression in a social work school, ⁓ I am very clear on why the colorblind methodology doesn't actually really work, right? It's ⁓ misnomer. ⁓ I can help people understand why ⁓ doesn't make sense and that's actually more harmful. But this again a small group of loud parents and I was able to connect not only with educators who are committed to this work, I was able to connect with Forge, I was able to connect to some community organizations and say, ⁓ if is working for you, ⁓ If you want DEI because your child is performing better or feels more protected, show up. And what happened was this group of maybe eight to 10 folks was outnumbered by 800 community members that showed up and said, it works for us. you just can't compete with that. But took organizing. It took relationship building. It took grounding people and understanding what was at stake. so I encourage you. ⁓ If you're not an educator, if you're just a parent or in the community, participate in supporting what is right. If you're an educator, there's so many opportunities to get training or go to conferences or participate in your own self-reflection of, ⁓ am I doing that might be harmful? And I might not even be aware, right? What are my biases around ⁓ I believe can achieve ⁓ material I'm talking about, the things I'm ignoring? about the makeup of my classroom. So there's just so many ways to be a part of this change.

Phillipe: So do you say to the kids in the schools who share concern and they want to do something about what they're seeing? ⁓ What can they do? ⁓

Kathy Lopes: Yeah. Yeah. Student engagement and advocacy is so powerful. That's also a chapter in the book too of students having voice. Many of these schools have kind of organizations or leadership clubs or affinity groups. And we really encourage and knew in our middle school and our high school students to be engaged, whether it's no place for hate, right? Whether it's running for student council or walkouts. ⁓ We create opportunities for students to do that in a really safe way. We want them to develop those life skills ⁓ before step out into the world in college and it's new, right? So that is a part of learning. So I would advocate or I would support students who have an interest, find your people, find kind of a place where you can be in. There are many in the building who are either kind of liaisons or facilitators of these groups. Or you know the teachers that you can trust. You know the teacher that has all the students kind of hanging out in their room during lunch, right? So utilize the adults to say, have an idea, or this is happening and this is not okay. ⁓ can some of these adults create the space for you to ⁓ be

Phillipe: That's great. for listeners who just want to learn more about equity in schools, where would be a good place for them to start in addition to reading your book, of course? ⁓

Kathy Lopes: Mm-hmm Yes, of course read my book. also, so a lot of my reading has come from, and a lot of the work that I do in teaching my racism course, I always default to Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria ⁓ Beverly Daniel Tatum. ⁓ It is a classic and it really is centered on racial identity and ⁓ that understanding of what is our experience, that self-reflection work.

Phillipe: Hmm. That's a classic.

Kathy Lopes: I also default often to white supremacy culture and that is ⁓ article that was originally written by Tima Okun. And that really helps us understand that some of the standards that we placed in our educational school system actually leave out a whole population of folks if that's not their inherent culture. ⁓ And how we disrupt thinking there's only one way to show up, one way to be right, one way to learn? ⁓ and white supremacy culture steeped into that. And we even as black folks have internalized like, this is how you present in order to be taken seriously. And how do we deconstruct that and see beauty and brilliance in multiple ways, a diversity of ways. ⁓ yeah, so ⁓ you're very welcome.

Phillipe: That's a great list. Thank you, Professor. All right, so as we move towards the end of the conversation, I just want to acknowledge that this has been really, really incredibly fruitful and meaningful for me as a parent who has kids in the public school system. And so I just want to locate myself in that conversation. I have a stake in what's going on there. It's very personal and precious to me. So I really appreciate that aspect of the conversation. And I'm wondering, is there anything else

Kathy Lopes: Hmm Yeah. Yeah. history shows us, right, when we start making advancements, when we start rising, that there is a system that going to try push us down, but shows us we prevail. ⁓ We just have to remain consistent.